To drop down or not? That is the question (1 Viewer)

[sheppy123]

doing maths standard encourages putting in less effort, I would make the argument that if they are aiming for an ATAR even above something like 85 then it would be detrimental to their ATAR for no purpose

85??? But what if you get high marks in standard though like 90+

 

[Sam14113]

doing maths standard encourages putting in less effort, I would make the argument that if they are aiming for an ATAR even above something like 85 then it would be detrimental to their ATAR for no purpose

I’m also not sure about this - I personally put in a lot less effort into English than I did into Math even though (or maybe because) I found English MUCH more difficult

 

[carrotsss]

Not sure your explanation is 100% — the system seems to me like it’s designed such that if every student put the same amount of time into each of their subjects then they should get the same mark (with a couple of minor, but usually irrelevant caveats).

So my assumption (and seemingly yours) that usually students taking standard put in less time than students taking advanced means that you don’t need to put in as much time into standard than advanced to get the same mark.

Either way, the system is secondary - the choice is really yours. If you need advanced for some course you may consider doing, then definitely keep it. Otherwise if you aren’t enjoying it and are struggling with it there’s no shame in doing standard - it’s a really underrated course in my opinion thats actually pretty decent for exposing you a variety of situations where you may need math (I don’t know btw, I don’t take it I can only tell you from my limited research) but if you’re going to hate math adv and you don’t need it, there’s no good reason to take it

The scaling for a subject is determined based on the performance of the cohort in english (or in the case of maths, a common scale is used, so it’s based on the common questions/subjects between courses). The overall effect of scaling is NOT that identical effort (assuming all else such as relative aptitude to the average person in the subject area is equal, which should be the case for maths given it’s one subject area) produces an identical aligned mark (ie the one you receive on results day), it is that an identical amount of effort should produce an identical scaled mark, which is used in the calculation of the ATAR. The flaw of taking maths standard is that in almost all cases (I’ve seen it happen over and over), students who drop to standard tend to put in less effort than they would in advanced, rather wasting the extra time (which it goes without saying will have a negative impact on atar) or spending the extra time on other subjects, which still has a negative impact, as given that maths is their weakest subject, the increase in scaled marks which is produced by an increase in effort in maths is much more significant. If a student’s ability in maths is poor and they wish to get a high ATAR then standard won’t increase their scaled mark, and the optimal decision (once again, purely from an ATAR perspective) would be to drop maths entirely. It is indisputable that dropping to maths standard is a poor decision purely from an ATAR perspective.

As I acknowledged in my original post, there are absolutely merits to taking standard if ATAR is not the primary consideration. For people entering non-STEM based fields in university, into the workforce or into a trade following high school, if ATAR is not super important for their future endeavours, then standard is absolutely a good choice. And as I said, there is no shame at all in doing standard.

 

[carrotsss]

I’m also not sure about this - I personally put in a lot less effort into English than I did into Math even though (or maybe because) I found English MUCH more difficult

Maths and English are entirely different subject areas, in which interest and aptitude may vary significantly, which is a significant influence on the amount of effort one will put into a subject. Maths Standard and Advanced are the same subject area, so if one lacks an aptitude and interest in one level of maths, it is quite unlikely that they will find an aptitude and interest in another level of maths.

 

[carrotsss]

85??? But what if you get high marks in standard though like 90+

As I said it’s still very possible to achieve any ATAR in standard, it just requires more motivation to continue putting in the same amount of effort despite the appearance of higher raw marks, it’s just not recommended because very few people will follow through on that.

 

[Sam14113]

The scaling for a subject is determined based on the performance of the cohort in english (or in the case of maths, a common scale is used, so it’s based on the common questions/subjects between courses).

Look with all due respect mate, you’re just flat out wrong about the common scale - see attached image (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 8).

Also, claiming that the scaling is “determined based on the performance of the cohort in English” isn’t 100% wrong, but highly misleading. Instead, each subject is scaled against every other subject so that a given subject cohort has the same average scaled mark (a) in that subject and (b) across all of their subjects (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 9). What is based on English is the maximum scaled mark, where the scale factor is determined such that the maximum possible 2-unit English mark is 50. However at the end of the day this doesn’t affect things as much, as really the mean and standard deviation are together a more accurate indication of distribution than top mark is.

Maybe you should try understand the system yourself before offering commentary.

 

[Sam14113]

Your comment that people will be less motivated to study maths standard because they will see ‘raw marks in practice’ and ‘aligned marks’ that will satisfy them is a fair one, and if you’ve seen lots of people fall into this trap, then I think you have a point. However, I don’t think it’s ‘indisputable’ at all — There is certainly an argument that your motivation isn’t determined by your complacency due to marks, but instead by how much effort you need to put in. Maybe if something’s harder, you’re more likely to procrastinate on it … just a thought.

Of course advanced has its scaling merits too — if you do really well in advanced it’s probably better than taking standard as getting 100% in any course is tough, and anything less than that can cost you. but what costs you more is getting a really bad mark in advanced. So there’s a balance. And at the end of the day, the system is designed to approximately not care which course you do and give you the same mark anyway (approximately being the key word)

 

[carrotsss]

Look with all due respect mate, you’re just flat out wrong about the common scale - see attached image (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 8).

Also, claiming that the scaling is “determined based on the performance of the cohort in English” isn’t 100% wrong, but highly misleading. Instead, each subject is scaled against every other subject so that a given subject cohort has the same average scaled mark (a) in that subject and (b) across all of their subjects (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 9). What is based on English is the maximum scaled mark, where the scale factor is determined such that the maximum possible 2-unit English mark is 50. However at the end of the day this doesn’t affect things as much, as really the mean and standard deviation are together a more accurate indication of distribution than top mark is.

Maybe you should try understand the system yourself before offering commentary.

Lmfao I have literally spent hours upon hours working with the scaling system to build my calculator, if you seriously think that I need to “try to understand the system myself” then I honestly don’t know what to tell you. The common scale part was my mistake (I had read that line in the past but my teacher said at some point that they’d implemented it) but the phrasing of scaling as being based on English was an intentional oversimplification of the scaling system (and is extremely far from “highly misleading”), because the point of my response wasn’t a detailed explanation of the scaling system - I was attempting to logically lay out the reason why Maths Standard is a poor decision ATAR-wise, and that point remains exactly the same nonetheless.

For the vast, vast majority of people an easier course of maths does result in less effort which is a negative thing for ATAR, and anecdotal experiences of procrastination don’t really change this - if someone doesn’t like maths, they will likely procrastinate either way. If someone is getting a “really, really bad mark in advanced” then dropping to standard will not save them from a purely ATAR perspective as one would be better off to maths counting at all - it’s not a matter of balance. I’m not denying that there are merits to Standard, but offering a higher ATAR is clearly not one of them barring a very small number of edge cases.

 

[year10studentpreparin]

yeah if its not a course requirement then drop. only reason i plan on keeping advanced is because its the absolute hardest math level im willing to do and most engineering courses require at least extension 1 lol

Ye true, I guess its easier to keep advance then do a bridging course IF YOU NEED IT FOR ENGINEERING.
OP is probs not gonna do engineering or something so he should just drop down to Standard and then work his hardest to get a band 5 or potentially band 6.
some courses claim assumed knowledge of maths advanced especially in stuff like architecture (design not architectual engineering) but in reality u can ez learn that maths that is used in it

 

[year10studentpreparin]

is math advanced even worth if you’re getting a band 4 raw mark?

no, because u can legit get a raw mark of 90+ in maths standard from studying like 1-2 hours a day for a week prior to the standard maths exam which yeah the scaling isnt gonna boost it so much but thats still a raw mark 90

 

[year10studentpreparin]

85??? But what if you get high marks in standard though like 90+

its a lot easier to get a band 6 in standard maths and then you can legit achieve pretty much any atar (assuming ur other marks are nice) except for maybe 98+ or some crap which nobody really needs except some niche people.
it would be easy to get a 90+ atar with standard maths its just if u want a 99+ atar with standard maths u probs have to get near perfect in everything
but in reality nobody really needs a 99 atar except med students who want the most prestigious uni etc

 

[year10studentpreparin]

if you want to do medicine at USYD or UNSW or something whcih requires 99+ atar well keep advanced, if u wanna do a maths heavy course just keep advanced, anything else just do standard maths and if it turns out that u need assumed knowledge of advanced just go to coursera and do the USYD calculus course which u can apply for free to and then learn in ur own time although this may not be sufficient for lets say engineering but for a lot of other stuff it will be really helpful or enough

 

[year10studentpreparin]

I don’t think people who do math standard are even aiming close to that atar anyways

most people doing advanced or a lot more other subjects dont even want a 99+ atar
most in standard maths just want a 80-90 atar at most which is ez considering it is more ez to band 6 standard maths

 

[year10studentpreparin]

Would an atar of like 88 - 93 be achievable doing standard, given that you do well in your other subjects

Definitely be achievable to get a 88-93 with standard. a lot more 97-98 atars of people who do standard as well its just virtually non existent at 99+ atar which only a handful of students really need

 

[sheppy123]

Definitely be achievable to get a 88-93 with standard. a lot more 97-98 atars of people who do standard as well its just virtually non existent at 99+ atar which only a handful of students really need

Thanks, that clears up a lot

 

[year10studentpreparin]

Thanks, that clears up a lot

NP bro.
U gonna do comp sci at unsw or...

 

[sheppy123]

NP bro.
U gonna do comp sci at unsw or...

probably co-op or law

 

[mmmmmmmmaaaaaaa]

probably co-op or law

you hold a different persona every time

 

[nsw..wollongong]

if only yall argued this well in ur discurisve yesterday smh

 

[sheppy123]

you hold a different persona every time

yeah i actually completed my HSC 20 years ago, idk why im on these forums