Islamic Imperialism (2 Viewers)

[HotShot]

I HAVE THE PERFECT SOLUTION !!!!!!!

get everyone out of there then

NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST !!!!!

think about it ! they wont argue about the gaza strip when its coated in radio active waste !

they wont argue it all, quick fix to get the jews out of there and back to germany -where they belong!

 

[_dhj_]

they wont argue it all, quick fix to get the jews out of there and back to germany -where they belong!

Nah.

Madagascar.

 

[zeek]

I would just like to point out that virtually ALL terrorism has stemmed from the hate that was created when the state of Israel was founded. Some of this hate is directed at America because they support them and they influenced other countries in the UN when they were asked to vote for Israel's foundation.
The foundation of Israel has also affected other countries indirectly e.g. Lebanon who was regarded as "the Paris of the Middle East...noted for its wide boulevards, French-style architecture, and modernity..." and "Switzerland of the Middle East (Swisra Ash Shark), enjoying a similar conflict-free status"

EDIT:

Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

 

[ZabZu]

Remember Israel was only recgnised by the US after the Israelis had kicked Arab ass.

I saw a documentary on the history channel saying that the US recognised Israel the day after Ben Gurion announced Israel's independence (establishment).

I would just like to point out that virtually ALL terrorism has stemmed from the hate that was created when the state of Israel was founded. Some of this hate is directed at America because they support them and they influenced other countries in the UN when they were asked to vote for Israel's foundation.
The foundation of Israel has also affected other countries indirectly e.g. Lebanon who was regarded as "the Paris of the Middle East...noted for its wide boulevards, French-style architecture, and modernity..." and "Switzerland of the Middle East (Swisra Ash Shark), enjoying a similar conflict-free status"

Terrorism conducted by Palestinians or pro-Palestinian groups only really began to flourish after the 1967 war when Israel gained control of all the Palestinian land. Eg. Munich, plane hijackings, etc.

Israel invaded Lebanon because the PLO moved there after they were kicked out of Jordan. Wasnt there already tension in Lebanon between the ruling Christians and the Muslims?

 

[loquasagacious]

@r3v3ng3:

Way to make an assumption.

And also to ignore every other conflict in history/the world.

To name a couple:
Chechnya (sp?)
Indonesia
Phillipines
South and Central America
The Red Brigade and similar in Europe
The IRA and their precursors in Ireland and England

Furthermore even all terrorism in the middle-east does not stem from it, for instance al-queda is not so much motivated by Israel as by a drive towards fundamentalism.

In technical terms what you did was assume and generalise.

EDIT: Just addressing.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Furthermore even all terrorism in the middle-east does not stem from it, for instance al-queda is not so much motivated by Israel as by a drive towards fundamentalism.

In technical terms what you did was assume and generalise.

Well that's what you just did, and thoose terms aren't really technical as well.

We know that Al-queda is a fundmentalist Islamic group. However Al-Queda is not really a good "PR" wing, so they have never really publicised what their main goals are. Though Al-Queda is promiting fundamental regimes, they however are more proposing the forced removal of US influence in the Middle East. For instance they are not targeting Syria (a Baathist country), they are targeting the US and Saudi Arabia.

So i would say the Al-Queda party is a Islamic Fundementalist Party motivated most by Middle East nationalism. This would include the destruction of Israel.

 

[mr EaZy]

Frogurt is correct. Israel didn't get substansial US support until after they had smashed the Arabs in 1967. Israel wins mostly because the Arabs aren't any good at building and operating modern militaries. Whole books have been written trying to figure out why the Arabs are so incompetent. Here's an excerpt from an article on it:

Israel did get support from the US in 2 ways:

1) They were given military support through weapons, aeroplanes, bombs- they even purchased on b-52 that was outdated and bombed cairo- apart from that loads of cash

2) they were given intelligence support- the US even brokered a deal with the arabs telling them to show the world that they were the good guys in letting israel make the first move- and when israel did make the first move- that gave them the tactical advantage they needed.- the war only lasted 6 days!

the first targets bombed were the airfields in egypt i think it was... the pilots were still stuck in rush hour traffic.

apart from that, many of israel's soldiers had fought in WW2- some were refugees from the war as well and others had served with the US in WW2

one thing that led from the above is that the middle east turned to russia for their supplies- if theUS supports israel- then the middle east would get their own super power ally...

 

[banco55]

Israel did get support from the US in 2 ways:

1) They were given military support through weapons, aeroplanes, bombs- they even purchased on b-52 that was outdated and bombed cairo- apart from that loads of cash

2) they were given intelligence support- the US even brokered a deal with the arabs telling them to show the world that they were the good guys in letting israel make the first move- and when israel did make the first move- that gave them the tactical advantage they needed.- the war only lasted 6 days!

the first targets bombed were the airfields in egypt i think it was... the pilots were still stuck in rush hour traffic.

apart from that, many of israel's soldiers had fought in WW2- some were refugees from the war as well and others had served with the US in WW2

one thing that led from the above is that the middle east turned to russia for their supplies- if theUS supports israel- then the middle east would get their own super power ally...

1)I'd be interested to see a source for the b-52. I'd be really shocked if Israel had any because it can only be used as a bomber and Israel needed lots of multi-role fighters because they couldn't afford to have a seperate bomber force like the Israelis did. The Arabs both in quality and quantity of weapons were better equipped than the Israelis in 1967.

2)They intel support they got in 1967 was negligible. Israel's mossad isn't considered one of the best intelligence services for nothing. They didn't need any american help in that area.

Some Israelis did have military service with the british during WW II but for that matter quite a few arabs served with british officer in the Arab Legion during WW II. If you do the math you'll see that someone who was young enough to fight in WW II would either be retired by 1967 or an old officer.

As for USSR you should hear what they had to say about the competence of the Arabs. They were constantly lamenting that they'd got stuck with the Arabs while the Americans got the Israelis. It was bad publicity for their arms sales when the Arabs were constantly getting their asses kicked while armed with soviet weapons.

 

[HotShot]

1)I'd be interested to see a source for the b-52. I'd be really shocked if Israel had any because it can only be used as a bomber and Israel needed lots of multi-role fighters because they couldn't afford to have a seperate bomber force like the Israelis did. The Arabs both in quality and quantity of weapons were better equipped than the Israelis in 1967.

2)They intel support they got in 1967 was negligible. Israel's mossad isn't considered one of the best intelligence services for nothing. They didn't need any american help in that area.

Some Israelis did have military service with the british during WW II but for that matter quite a few arabs served with british officer in the Arab Legion during WW II. If you do the math you'll see that someone who was young enough to fight in WW II would either be retired by 1967 or an old officer.

As for USSR you should hear what they had to say about the competence of the Arabs. They were constantly lamenting that they'd got stuck with the Arabs while the Americans got the Israelis. It was bad publicity for their arms sales when the Arabs were constantly getting their asses kicked while armed with soviet weapons.

number dont mean anything if u dont use them. the arabs that sent their force to fight israel were very small compared to their total force. the rest were kept at home for defensive purpose. so they may have more weapons, but it doesnt mean that they used it. as for quality they would have been the same, if not israel would have better.
old officers- are valuable for their experience, nothing beats experience.

 

[mr EaZy]

1)I'd be interested to see a source for the b-52. I'd be really shocked if Israel had any because it can only be used as a bomber and Israel needed lots of multi-role fighters because they couldn't afford to have a seperate bomber force like the Israelis did. The Arabs both in quality and quantity of weapons were better equipped than the Israelis in 1967.

2)They intel support they got in 1967 was negligible. Israel's mossad isn't considered one of the best intelligence services for nothing. They didn't need any american help in that area.

Some Israelis did have military service with the british during WW II but for that matter quite a few arabs served with british officer in the Arab Legion during WW II. If you do the math you'll see that someone who was young enough to fight in WW II would either be retired by 1967 or an old officer.

As for USSR you should hear what they had to say about the competence of the Arabs. They were constantly lamenting that they'd got stuck with the Arabs while the Americans got the Israelis. It was bad publicity for their arms sales when the Arabs were constantly getting their asses kicked while armed with soviet weapons.

Now, with all due respect, i must applaude your insistence on references because a debate aint as good without them

i wasnt referring to the 1967 war only- i was referring to the arab israeli war in general and why the Arabs and the islamic world "hate" america so much although the word "hate" ought to be defined as directed towards its foreign policy and ill leave it at that.

in the 1948 war: Israel did acquire bombers: not b-52s but the outdated B-17 bombers: i saw it in a doco

but heres the link:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/israel_and_the_1948_war.htm

At the height of the 1948 War, Israel’s army numbered 100,000.

Though the attack on Israel was a surprise one, Israel was surprisingly well equipped at a military level. The country had a navy and many in her army were experienced in combat as a result of World War Two. Israel had also bought three B-17 bombers in America on the black market. In July 1948, these were used to bomb the Egyptian capital, Cairo.

The Arab nations that attacked Israel faced one major problem. There was nothing to co-ordinate their attacks. Each essentially attacked as a separate unit rather than as a combined force. However, the Israeli Army was under one single command structure and this proved to be very important. Israeli victories came on all the war fronts.

B-17 flying fortress: http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/b17.html

apart from the above evidence of WW2 vets appearing on the israeli front lines i found this site to satisfy you:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade

and a related wiki link:

Meir (Zarro) Zorea (March 14, 1923- June 24, 1995) was a general in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and later a member of the Knesset ("parliament") of Israel. He earned distinction through his combat actions in World War II and in the Israeli War of Independence. He was a founder of Israel's short-lived centrist Democratic Movement for Change Party also known as the Dash Party.

http://www.zchor.org/meirtchak/photos.htm

Approximately 1.5 million Jewish officers and soldiers in the ranks of the Allied regular armies, in Underground national resistance movements, and in Partisan units participated in all theatres of the war fighting the Nazi Foe and Axis Powers. They fought bravely, proved their heroism, showed courage and dedication in their struggle. Their valor made a significant and impressive contribution to the ultimate victory of the Allied Forces in World War II.

Nearly 200.000 Polish Jews fought against Nazi Germany in the ranks of the Polish Armies on Polish soil and in Exile. They defended Poland in September 1939 against the German aggression. They fought in the Polish Armies in exile; in the 1940 defense of France, in the Middle East, in North Africa and in Italy. While serving in the Polish Tank Corps, Air Force and Navy they participated, together with the RAF and British Royal Navy, in the Normandy Landings. The Polish Forces, along with The Red Army, took part in the great offensive, eventually liberating Poland and conquering Germany.

now im curious: where did all the Poles go to after the war again?

at the bottom of that link there is a sign saying:

The Association of Jewish War Veterans of Polish Armies in Israel
158 Dizengof St.
63461 Tel Aviv, Israel
Tel: 00-972-3-5225078
Fax: 00-972-3-5236684

That explains it.

 

[mr EaZy]

my rant

ill take this thread to rant on a few things

If you do the math you'll see that someone who was young enough to fight in WW II would either be retired by 1967 or an old officer.

well 1967- 1944 or thereabouts +20 - doesnt amount to much- i dont see your point, its about experience - not brute strenght- experience that can be handed down

this is not just about the 1967 wars- its about all the wars that took place in the region: mosche dayan took part in most of them including the 1967 one although his role on the field was not as much as before.

quite simply- military management according to some might include : POLC

Planning
organising
leading
controlling

Israel did all that- the arabs didnt
eg: blowing up a few airfields as a first move is a great plan...

lets move on to mossad:

MOSSAD​

With regards to mossad: your right- they are pretty capable in intel gathering, assasinations and kidnappings- so it has a terrorist branch and a state policing/military intel branch.

In 1967 i dont think israel had any satellite intel (unless you can show them to me)- but the USA surely did and thats where they supplied the intel as mossad was a ground based agency.

mossad is reportedly in action in northern iraq atm:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/21/1410218

Mossad apart from its successes is also notorious for :

1) its disregard for national laws, the rule of law and due process and engagement in terrorist acts:

eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad

In July 1973, Ahmed Bouchiki, an innocent Moroccan waiter in Lillehammer, Norway, was assassinated while walking with his pregnant wife. He had been mistaken for Ali Hassan Salameh, one of the leaders of Black September, the Palestinian group responsible for the Munich massacre, who had been given shelter in Norway. The Mossad agents had used fake Canadian passports, which angered the Canadian government. Six Mossad agents were arrested, and the incident became known as the Lillehammer affair.

recently- they tried to get into NZ with fake passports as well- some covert op= man get some real passports (the subsequent desecration of jewish graves was uncalled for though- its ALWAYS the innocent people who suffer from mossad's illegal actions).


2) blowing up Synagogues:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/11/Mossad_Turkish_blasts.html
By Margalit Cohen
Sydney, Australia

they did the same in iraq as well:
this is what an iraqi jew wrote:

I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors.

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/NaeimGiladi.cfm
(theres other stuff there on bombs)

And later blaming it on the arabs/al-qaeda/the plo: (source debatable)
http://www.americanfreepress.net/09...y___Mossa/u_s__army_officers_say___mossa.html

Top U.S. Army analysts believe Israel's intelligence agency, the Mossad, is "ruthless and cunning," "a wildcard" that "has [the] capability to target U.S. forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act."

they also tried to bring al-qaeda in the palestinian-israeli conflict:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html (smh link inside)
(source debatable- ive never used these sites before)

The Mossad arent generally seen to be the good guys as they on many previous attempts have tried to blow up western targets in muslim countries and Jewish places of worship in islamic countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_affair
http://www.vialls.com/transpositions/terror.html (debatable intel)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zionism​

just a wrap up- i dont hate jews- ive got two jewish mates to prove it- and one supports israel (we had a 'friendly' debate once)

but not all jews are zionists
as some adopt the following attitude:

i'm an anti-nationalist and a spiritual & cultural zionist.

That's a fascinating formulation, and one I hadn't seen articulated before, but I think I like it. Nationalism is troubling to me for a variety of reasons; when I think about Israel it's generally in spiritual and cultural terms (e.g. what "Jerusalem" has come to mean after centuries of usage in the daily Jewish liturgy) and not in geographical or political ones.

It continues to sadden me that those who criticize Israel, in the Diaspora, are often painted with the anti-Zionist and anti-Semite brush. (I imagine the same happens in Israel, though I wouldn't know from personal experience.) We need people to be sufficiently engaged with the situation (er -- pardon the pun) to approach it critically. Thanks for being one of those people.

Rachel • 08/16/05 07:23pm

http://www.orthodoxanarchist.com/2005/08/on-being-simultaneously-pro-and-anti.php

im against conventional zionism simply because its racist- especially against african jews , asian jews and in some cases arab jews:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/3716/publications_eng/the_bond_of_silence.html

theres different incidences- this was an isolated scandal - but there were in the past plans to have oriental jews cultivate lands taken away from the palestinians and there was even a black panther protest in israel in the 1940s when european jews were favoured over the existing population- now israel's jewry is mainly european as opposed to the old demographics.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

in the end all wars are bad- im against torture or killing innocent people without due process to prove them guilty- the rules dont change in war- innocent means innocent- no one may kill no matter what his race or faith. Against terrorism, again the rules dont change unless we wish to transform ourselves into lowlying savages ready to break both divine and secular laws and trying to achieve what we want.

im not going to glorify wars or terrorist acts ill just leave of with something from this link:


http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/2005Oct30London.cfm

You may well ask, how come we Jews are here protesting in support of Palestinians - who many would think of as enemies of the Jews.

The answer, my friends, is that the Palestinian dispute is with the Zionists and not with the Jews. Zionism and Judaism are two completely different and opposing ideas

.

let like be like.

if i was against judaism- id oppose it with what i have : islam and because previous jews as mentioned in the Quran were muslims (as they submitted to the will of God and obeyed their prophets) i have nothing against those jews (except the jews mentioned in the OT or the Quran as being rebellious) but i may have issues with present jews if i were to have a talk with them (and these issues will have to be cleared up- i dont know what they are yet)

if i was against israel or zionism= id criticize its policies or its foundation- i dont support any nation in particular- i support whichever nation is doing the right thing in making this world a better place.


:rofl:

 

[Snaykew]

The Israelis have bested the Arabs in all spheres of life. Economic, cultural, scientific etc.

How does a people "best" another people in culture? Is this like religion how "my religion is better than yours because I'm right and you're wrong"? How do you measure how "good" a culture is?

Just curious.

 

[banco55]

Mossad is known for being ruthlessly efficent and yes they quite often get their hands dirty. One of their favourite tricks for example was to find out which arab officers were gay (a surprising number of them) and either blackmail them or let their families know. As for satellite intel (publicly available sources) ie seymour hersh's The Samson option suggest that Israel didn't get much imagery intel until as late as the '80's.

I think you'd have to agree that by any standards the perfomance of Arab militaries since WW II against all opponents (Israeli, British, American and Iranian) has been for the most part poor and at best mediocre (ie first few days of 1973 war). Only the Italian army has a record as bad as the Arabs. You may know that lot of armies ie french, british, American, singaporean send lots of their officers to Israel to ltake courses put on by the Israeli military because they have a good reputation. I don't think I need to tell you how many western officers are sent to Arab military academies by comparison.

 

[banco55]

How does a people "best" another people in culture? Is this like religion how "my religion is better than yours because I'm right and you're wrong"? How do you measure how "good" a culture is?

Just curious.

I'd say by their contribution to the arts, music etc. I'd think most people would agree that say Elizabethan england or Ancient Greece's cultural contributions were out of all proportion to their numbers. For that matter try totalling up the number of famous jewish writers, musicians, scientists over the last 2 centuries. For such a small group they produced an incredible number of great men.

 

[Snaykew]

So US culture is the best currently because they produce so much music? Something like that? Just being of a certain ethnic background and having more writers/musical artists constitutes as a better culture? Even if the people who don't have as much music or art are content with their way of life? (No referrence to any cultures, just theoritically.)

 

[spell check]

We know that Al-queda is a fundmentalist Islamic group. However Al-Queda is not really a good "PR" wing, so they have never really publicised what their main goals are. Though Al-Queda is promiting fundamental regimes, they however are more proposing the forced removal of US influence in the Middle East. For instance they are not targeting Syria (a Baathist country), they are targeting the US and Saudi Arabia.

So i would say the Al-Queda party is a Islamic Fundementalist Party motivated most by Middle East nationalism. This would include the destruction of Israel.

al qaeda have published loud and painfully clear what their objectives are - removal of US forces from Saudi Arabia (location of the holiest sites in Islam) and Iraq now (second holiest), which bin Laden has described as 'the worst disaster since the death of the Prophet.' this is mentioned in most if not all bin Laden's statements to the west and his fatwas etc.

being an astute political organisation, they use other grievances such as anti-Israeli sentiment to draw support but they have never even attacked Israel directly since israel has no troops on the arabian peninsula

al qaeda is closer to an islamic nationalist movement rejecting foreign military occupation of their homeland than a fundamentalist movement, it is merely aggravated by the fact that their nationalism is informed by certain religious views which means they use tactics such as suicide bombings which other nationalist movements would not.

 

[mr EaZy]

Banco:
I dont know what your agenda is but:

Mossad is known for being ruthlessly efficent and yes they quite often get their hands dirty. One of their favourite tricks for example was to find out which arab officers were gay (a surprising number of them) and either blackmail them or let their families know. As for satellite intel (publicly available sources) ie seymour hersh's The Samson option suggest that Israel didn't get much imagery intel until as late as the '80's. .

i am not surprised. the russians used to do the same thing- catch the americans in a sex act and blackmail them into providing intel

satellite intel is rarely given out to countries with a limited understanding of their use- the case is: one country gets them, interprets them and gives the info to the other countries

I think you'd have to agree that by any standards the perfomance of Arab militaries since WW II against all opponents (Israeli, British, American and Iranian) has been for the most part poor and at best mediocre (ie first few days of 1973 war). Only the Italian army has a record as bad as the Arabs. You may know that lot of armies ie french, british, American, singaporean send lots of their officers to Israel to ltake courses put on by the Israeli military because they have a good reputation. I don't think I need to tell you how many western officers are sent to Arab military academies by comparison.

i never said the arab countries were any good- and nor do i support any arab country and nor am i an arab. i am not a nationalist- i judge countries based on objective standards to be just or despotic or anything inbetween based on my world views and opinions and i dont need people to agree with me or not because they are my opinions.

(As a muslim, i have to ask what can be worse than a muslim country without any islam; or with a leader oppressing his own people? I will not support such countries)

There's millions of jews who would judge israel objectively as well- that means without prejudice to race or religion. ive given their link above.

The fact that the americans singaporeans et al send their officers to israel is an indication of the comparability of their armed capabilities- usually its through technology, and otherwise its by analysing strategy - not by numbers or actual strenght: i mean china v Israel or any other country.... yesh!

there was once a doco where the US were playing a war game with the Israelis and the latter won- it was a game on a large computer screen- so it was about tactics.

Religious analysis

from an islamic perspective, all what i have said above is irrelevant in explaining the situation of the arabs today or even the wider islamic community.

im assuming your a jew or having some ties/affiliations to israel. its not about weapons or men or skills- that may play its part- but it isnt whats important to the individual muslim- nor was it important in helping David beat Goliath- the issue was of faith- Faith in God and in his revelations/Prophets.

There was a reason why David was successful, and there was a reason why the temples were destroyed a number of times, and the Jews deported/exiled and persecuted through the many countries- it is again what their own Prophets warned them about, i think Moses gave that warning, and im not sure if Jesus in the NT Bible did the same. The Quran continues that warning to them again- but then it along with the Hadith get technical as we move into the present times.

ill leave it there (theres a "prison break" going on )

 

[mr EaZy]

i also wasnt surprised about the gay stuff

 

[iranian rocket]

Persians are Arabs. The rise of Islam was centuries ago, its appeal spread throughout the Middle-East and was readily taken up by the masses. You make out like Islam crushed some sort of distinct Persian culture. The Greeks crushed Persian culture.

You are by far the most ignorant individual i have ever come accross. Firstly the people of Iran are not arabs, iran is the only country in the middle east that isnt arabic. Iranians have their own language (farsi), they have their own national holidays and festivals that are derived from their Zoroastrian roots some 5000years ago, their own music, there is even great animosity between iranians and arabs you might want to read up on the tensions in the middle east you fool. Your a lost cunt stop talking shit. Even in religion we are divided, while arabs belong to the sunni branch of islam, iranians belong to the shia branch (comparable to catholics and protestants).

where the hell do you get your information from? The only thing we share in common with the arabs is religion. by that same token are you trying to say italian catholics and east timorese catholics share the same culture? are you completely stupid? Can you tell me how the greeks crushed persian culture? You know nothing of iran so dont pretend to.