IDF Flotilla Incident Official Thread (3 Viewers)

Rothbard

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Israel is a member of the UN hence under article 51 it can defend itself holy fuck you guys are so set in your ways there's no point even discussing anything. If you honestly believe that we should just take anyone's word on what they are carrying you are a fucking moron.
Admittedly the claims of Israel regarding the situation and their actions are quite abhorrent.

Regardless, the interaction occurred in international waters.

They would have been justified in searching the boats within their waters.
 
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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

3. The jury was out on Israel before the 'crime' had even been committed. Even if you don't like Israel you have to acknowledge the basic principle of "innocent until proven guilty" which, I'll remind you all, the Australian legal system operates under. A proper investigation hasn't even been launched yet, but already the world media is crying "massacre," "murder" and "attack" contrary to obvious evidence to the contrary (see below).
its not our fault - THE HOLOCAUST after all!
 
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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Israel is a member of the UN hence under article 51 it can defend itself holy fuck you guys are so set in your ways there's no point even discussing anything. If you honestly believe that we should just take anyone's word on what they are carrying you are a fucking moron.
israel was not acting in self defense. the boats posed no immediate threat.

furthermore, they used disproportionate force, which is a war crime.
edit: or a crime against humanity
edit2: almost as much of a crime as the size of your chin :rofl:
 

bazrah

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

It's more of a symbolic gesture that is supposed to lighten the mood in Gaza and bring cheer and joy to the innocent children of Gaza... And also, had the aid went through israeli routes then possibly half of the aid wouldn't make it in due to the strict rules imposed by paranoid israel. Cargo also contained reconstruction materials which are seemingly banned by israel.


SOURCE

THE GUARDIAN
I'm sure the children would have appreciated it more if they just allowed the aid to arrival through proper regulations and protection. Let's not forget it's Hamas who had stolen aid before. There is also a figure that 15,000 tonnes of aid are allowed through each week anyway. The government of Palestine is a terrorist organization. You don't give concrete to a terrorist organization. It's silly to think that the concrete will make it to the civilians.
 

ibbi00

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

I'm sure the children would have appreciated it more if they just allowed the aid to arrival through proper regulations and protection. Let's not forget it's Hamas who had stolen aid before. There is also a figure that 15,000 tonnes of aid are allowed through each week anyway. The government of Palestine is a terrorist organization. You don't give concrete to a terrorist organization. It's silly to think that the concrete will make it to the civilians.
Which is less than a quarter of what the basic requirements are.

"One's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"
 

Slidey

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

I'm 100% certain the fact that they were in International Waters isn't in dispute, dude.


I'm sick of trolling, this is too serious a topic to dismiss with rhetoric.

Israel is getting completely out of hand, in an international sense and now that the Obama administration is in power in the whitehouse, the extreme rabbinic right is trying to see how far they can push the international community whilst still having US support.

Cast Lead was a disgrace as well, as is the blockade. Israel has a reasonable right to search and seize weapons going into gaza and the west bank, but also has a reasonable responsibility to not kill gazans and Palestinians willy nilly. Israel's constant overreaction to everything that seems even slightly pro Palestinian and their insane reaction to criticism, labelling it as Anti-Semitic is beyond ridiculous.

They are acting in the manner of a rogue state, and were they not our allies our politicians would be up in arms about this disgrace. Though this was a staged photo-op most likely by Palestinian sympathisers, Israel has given Hamas' claims far more substance when they've proven they will attack a convoy of what appears to be mostly humanitarian aid workers and the like.

Just like Cast Lead was a chance for the rabbinic right to seize popular power before the end of GWB's reign and the Knesset elections, this is another gratuitous use of unacceptable force motivated entirely by a self-satisfactory insane zionism that seems to be infecting Israel's parliament and public sentiment each and every day.

Whilst I'd err on the side of caution in promoting the views put forward by that particularly right-wing member of the Knesset that said the British were dogs, saying that that was probably a sound bite used to cast aspersions against Israelis as a whole the primary issue faced by both sides is the insane religious radicalisation.

The Rabbinic right are engaged in an insane form of Zionism that sees all of the land from the Nile to the Euphrates as theirs, and wants to conform with biblical prophecy. Fortunately these are powerful but still minority elements within Israel, particularly held in Ultra-Orthodox circles. However this minority has still had a pernicious impact on Israel's overall response to the Gazan situation and the situation of Palestine, showing little to no care for the Gazans and Palestinians, in the pursuit of a no-tolerance policy of terrorism.

The other side is equally wrong, though pushed into that situation through what they see as necessity as no other alternative has worked. The Palestinians elected Hamas after a brutal period of infighting (and yes Hamas was created by the Israelis to fight Fatah and stop stable government competing with Israel) and a brutal series of attacks from Israel. Hamas' charter does not recognise the state of Israel and thus peace talks have broken down on both sides. The peace that may have been achieved in the late nineties is now a fairy tale because of the state of both parties.

Israel has been given carte blanche to do basically whatever they want through the whims of the American religious right and the American neocons. There is also a degree of western sympathy for the Israelis, they have every justification to have a fortress mentality due to being constantly under attack, but that mentality has turned into a severe malignancy infecting their overall policies and has lead to them performing acts that no society which dared to call itself a 'western democracy' would consider acceptable.

The two parties in this debate are fairly straightfoward, you have the insane ultra-zionists to whom Israel can do no wrong, and the somewhat crazed conspiracy theorists or supremely pro-palestinian individuals who think that Israel has no right to exist and there is somewhat of a global control on how people see Israel. Sure Israel does engage in counter-intelligence operations and attempts to spin what is going on continuously, but the same can be said for the Palestinians. This was a PR stunt by Hamas and they would almost certainly be delighted that it was attacked by Israel because it allows them to push forward their point that Israel is acting as a rogue nation outside of the limitations of International Law.

The final point is that International Law is completely fucking arbitrary and really doesn't come into this. Countries are impossible to bind to international law, particularly countries such as the US and Israel, and we should not recognise any form of international court because it would be highly affected by political posturing and movement by the big UN Security Council powers. The most effective way to peace in the region is a minimisation of the radical sentiment, put forward by the youth on both sides. Now this is particularly difficult in the case of young individuals who are pro Palestinian because they are absolutely horrified at what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank every single day.

It is incredibly difficult to separate yourself from the chaos emotionally and start making moderate points. If your family or people you know or even people you identify with are attacked indiscriminately because of where they choose to live, it makes sense to want revenge and to fight back, but it's obvious that the fight is one sided, if you attack Israel with force they are going to destroy you with superior weapons and technology. It's just how this works, they have the funding and backing of the world's biggest superpowers, and even though Hamas is working with Hezbollah and the Iranians, they will not be able to compete in any way through force be it using different tactics or weapons. Their only real chance of landing any damage on Israel is through a nuclear arsenal, and if their chosen destination is martyrdom, well they'll certainly get it in response to a nuclear attack on Israeli soil. Israel's nuclear arsenal is the world's worst kept secret, and they certainly will not hesitate to use it to destroy most of the middle east in retaliation to an attack on their soil, fuck the consequences. If they're acting this insane in response to a few rockets (albeit ones aimed at civilians), their response to a nuclear assault will be so utterly unimaginable it is something neither side should ponder for too long.

Though it is obvious that the growing PR campaign against Israeli aggression is starting to take hold, even nations such as Australia that would have been 'waiting for the facts' under a Howard government have taken action to expel diplomats because of the passport scandal and now the attacks on the flotilla. Western Nations are starting to stand up against Israel's continued attacks against civilians and are starting to want answers.

Now there are two ways that this can go, the first is towards a peace process, to those who are anti Israel, get the idea of the state of Israel being dissolved out of your mind, there is no power on this earth that can make this happen, and Israel is too integrated with Western Powers to have this ever be a possibility regardless of the armaments or power of Middle-Eastern states. The West is decades ahead of you in weapons and technology, and whilst you may technically have more manpower, that's just grist for the grinder. The most likely outcome is potentially a land resettlement deal with reparations paid to Israelis to sell their land to Palestinians through a third party funding source. The only people who could possibly oppose this would be insanely zionist jews, so again, given the current makeup of the knesset, this is still a long way off.

But for those spouting rhetoric of a dissolved israel and a fully free Palestine, again, the path that this can take is an all out war between Egypt, Israel, Syria, Lebanon and potentially Iran and even Afghani soldiers. (Potentially even Iraqis though, I honestly doubt it after the American occupation). The UK, Australia, France, Germany and all of NATO with the exception of the US will choose to not intervene. The US will support the Israelis with weapons and manpower if it turns into an all out war, and the possibility of a nuclear strike is quite substantial. The US wants to guard their 'example democracy' in the middle east, and would be almost certain to cut ties with nations without supplies of oil if they can negotiate deals with Russia to allow for an attack on these middle-eastern states.

Again were we to factor energy independence into the equation for the US (Which is unlikely given the power of oil cartels), the odds are even higher, meaning the US will back Israel unconditionally regardless of how the Russians and the Saudis react.

TL;DR - Israel is acting like a complete fuckwit because they've gone mental under the fortress mentality, so have the palestinians. Both have started electing crazy religious fundamentalists. Both sides are fucked. Only young kids who are moderate on both sides can stop the slide. Put ideas of Israel 'going away' out of your head, the west and Israel have superior weapons, firepower and tactics. Any nuclear attack on Israel will almost certainly end with a nuclear retaliation all throughout the middle east. if there is all out war the US will support Israel wholeheartedly and the US/Israeli coalition will win.

Any questions?
Pretty much this.
 

Optimus Prime

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Admittedly the claims of Israel regarding the situation and their actions are quite abhorrent.

Regardless, the interaction occurred in international waters.

They would have been justified in searching the boats within their waters.
So San, my man. If there is reasonable grounds to search a boat and in order to prevent materiel reaching an enemy nation state or non-state terrorist organisation then they can do so in international waters. I'm not saying they should have, I don't know why they couldn't have just waited and intercepted it.
 

Rothbard

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

So San, my man. If there is reasonable grounds to search a boat and in order to prevent materiel reaching an enemy nation state or non-state terrorist organisation then they can do so in international waters. I'm not saying they should have, I don't know why they couldn't have just waited and intercepted it.

dude that is some borked grokking of the laws

they cannot do shit until it is within 55 mi of their actual location.
 

Aryanbeauty

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

dude that is some borked grokking of the laws

they cannot do shit until it is within 55 mi of their actual location.
Austrlaian NAvy regularly intercepts, boarded and inspected boats carrying illegal migrants and fishing trawlers on the high seas as far away as 500 miles off Austrlian coasts. :lol:
 

Slidey

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Austrlaian NAvy regularly intercepts, boarded and inspected boats carrying illegal migrants and fishing trawlers on the high seas as far away as 500 miles off Austrlian coasts. :lol:
They don't do so by boarding the vessels in the dead of night when everybody is meant to be asleep, nor do they initiate the boarding with bullets and gas.

Idiot.
 

niloony

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Another botched Israeli special forces mission...they knew what to expect they either went in completely unplanned or they were hoping for a violent response. This many dead in international waters is an embarrassment to all of Israel and regardless of who fired first I applaud the international reaction.

Even after decades of condemnation by the world of their ruthless operations they continue to carry them out in such a way...its a problem at the top not with the people.
 
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Aryanbeauty

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

They don't do so by boarding the vessels in the dead of night when everybody is meant to be asleep, nor do they initiate the boarding with bullets and gas.

Idiot.
Australian navy boarded the boat at day and night, as soon as they intercepted them and were always FULLY ARMED and dangerous! Israel has the right to board any ship heading to Gaza anywhere , any time within its waters as well as international waters. :bat:
 

Slidey

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Australian navy boarded the boat at day and night, as soon as they intercepted them and were always FULLY ARMED and dangerous! Israel has the right to board any ship heading to Gaza anywhere , any time within its waters as well as international waters. :bat:
When was the last time the Australian navy massacred the occupants of the ship it boarded (legally I might add, in Australian waters)?
 

Aryanbeauty

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

When was the last time the Australian navy massacred the occupants of the ship it boarded (legally I might add, in Australian waters)?
Unlike Terrorists sympathisers heading to Gaza, illegal migrants and asylum seekers are wise enough not to fight or attack our Navy sailors. :lol:
 

Slidey

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Unlike Terrorists sympathisers heading to Gaza, illegal migrants and asylum seekers are wise enough not to fight or attack our Navy sailors. :lol:
Incorrect, there has been documented cases of this before even as recently as last year. Australian border patrol still didn't butcher them like cattle.

Anyway, you're a troll. Bye.
 

chicky_pie

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

It's funny how the Turkish government is asking the U.S to condemn the 'raid' whereas the selfish Turks forget that they can't hide from their history (The genocide of Armenian and Kurdish people) who most have forgotten in history.

From the news that was coming out (and arguably, the news that’s still being reported in the West), Israel had intercepted a few ships carrying critical humanitarian supplies to Gaza and, unprovoked, opened fire on the innocent civilians on board. Like other actions Israel has taken in the past, I thought this was going to be something I just couldn’t stomach supporting when speaking with my Palestinian and Palestine-supporting friends, and something I could never come out in support of. The story seemed a clear cut case of overreaction by Israel, but that could not be further from the truth.

As more information has become available, Israel has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that, however regrettable the loss of life and injury of the passengers is, opening fire on the so-called “peace activists” was justified. (For the record, peace activists is put in quotes because they bring a bad name to a label I am usually proud to use to describe myself. These people were not peace activists, but rather activists on behalf of a particular side in a carefully constructed publicity stunt). Let’s go through the facts.

1. The activists on board the ship invoked the killing of Jews as part of their purpose. This not only shows these activists’ goal was not to bring peace to the region, but also likely made Israeli soldiers and leaders anxious as to the safety of intercepting these ships.

2. Prior to boarding any ship, Israel gave orders over loudspeakers to the ships to not move towards Gaza, but instead to redirect towards Ashdod where, after inspection of the goods, they would be brought by truck into Gaza. If the concern of these activist was solely the delivery of aid supplies to Gaza, they would have acquiesced to these demands and warnings rather than trying to break a naval blockade. These people had already decided that they were going to try to get the maximum media attention, at any cost.

3. The first five ships were intercepted and boarded without incident, and with no deaths or injuries. Unlike the claims by the organisers of this trip, Israel clearly did not immediately open fire on the ships. On these first five ships, people did not attack the Israeli soldiers and thus the incident passed without incident. It was only on the Mavi Marmara, the sixth ship boarded, that problems occurred.

4. The first Israeli soldiers boarding the ships were armed with paintball guns as a primary, non-lethal form of defence. Many of the soldiers had no other weapon and were frightened as they were attacked (below).

5. Israeli soldiers boarding the Mavi Marmara were beaten as soon as they boarded the ships. These two videos, the first from the BBC and the second from the Israeli Navy, show soldiers being mobbed and beaten with metal bars as soon as they got onto the ship. The second video also shows activists throwing a soldier overboard.

6. Israeli soldiers did not begin to open fire until after they were already under attack. Several minutes of what the soldiers felt was going to become lynching, with soldiers being beaten with metal rods and knives, having their weapons taken from and used on them, and other physical violence. Reports indicate that the first live fire used by Israel occurred after the so-called peace activists struck a soldier on the head and began to trample him. Then the military command authorised the use of force.

This situation is certainly not good. As many as a dozen people were killed, and several dozen, including many Israeli soldiers, were injured, some seriously. And the press could not be worse for Israel. Turkey, once a stalwart ally of Israel with whom relations have soured over the past few years see this as a final straw, and have withdrawn their ambassador from Israel (note: they did not cut relations completely). Other countries, including many in Europe, as well as Arab countries with whom Israel has relations to some degree - Jordan, Egypt, and Qatar - are condemning these actions. At least the Palestinian Authority, despite condemning the attack, has not cancelled proximity talks with Israel. There is at least a ray of hope.

Could this have been handled better with less loss of life? Probably. Might not have intercepting these ships, with the associated security risks for Israel (for the record, not a risk I would advocate Israel having taken), have likely left Israel in a better position on the world stage? Almost certainly. Could Israel have done a better job getting the facts out? Absolutely. Is the blockade of Gaza not the best way of solving the problem, and actually counter-productive to the goal of it? Definitely. But a careful examination of the facts has definitely changed my initial reaction. I am still disgusted, as I always am, by the loss of life in this tragic incident. I am concerned that the region could be only further destabilised and peace further away due to the aftermath of this event. But one thing is for sure: Israel should not receive all of the blame for the 9 dead and several dozen injured; in fact, most of the blame should go to the activists themselves who planned to get involved in violence.




Source:

YouTube - Gaza flotilla participants invoked killing of Jews
YouTube - IDF - Navy Warns Flotilla (31 May 2010)
Gaza Activists Claim "Brutal" Israeli Raid - CBS News
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/deadly+last+moments+Gaza+flotilla/3093524/story.html
YouTube - Beating the Hell Out of Israeli Naval Commandos
YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers
Israel Navy commandos: Gaza flotilla activists tried to lynch us - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
Turkey slams Israel for 'bloody massacre' - CNN.com
PA refrains from suspending Israel proximity talks, despite Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
 

chicky_pie

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship



I love the way Islam is forced into the young women before they started menstruation and is required to wear the hijab. Using children to hate a country before they have any knowledge or capacity to think for themselves = brainwashing.





Source:
Town Hall protest | Anti-Israeli protests across Australia | News.com.au

This guy, when controversy comes that involves his stoneage religion, he follows














Religion is plagued onto the streets, welcome to Sharia 8th century style, where women are 2nd class and homosexuality is dealt with death.
 

bazrah

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Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Incorrect, there has been documented cases of this before even as recently as last year. Australian border patrol still didn't butcher them like cattle.

Anyway, you're a troll. Bye.
Hahaha you lost that so bad.
 

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