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Heil Hitler (1 Viewer)

MoonlightSonata

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fish fingers said:
Yeh I can infer what he meant through appeal to the majority, but I was just saying according to this site, and I must say it was a very good site, it doesnt exist. There is appeal to Belief, and appeal to tradition.
Appealing to majority is the same thing as appealing to belief. They are just different names for the same thing.
 

bJ_Bhoy 87

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Hitler was a great man, one of the greatest men ever to live. Great, but not good. A political genius... well, he played great politics but most importantly his closest supporters were even shrewder. Goebbels gave the power to Hitler. Hitler's speech skills are something to be admired, and to look up to, regardless of the content. It is only when you look into the content however that you see Hitler's downfall, the ramblings of a prick.

This arguement has helped me more for English Enxtension II than Mod. History but was of great assistance. Thanx!
 

launcher169

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lol its good that people are talking about him....we as a society can see what has happened and unlike hitler, who did not learn from previous mistakes (napoleon invading russia) we can learn from the mistakes that were made by the weinmar republic to let a man such as hitler into power

btw hitler even himself found an error of his interpretation of darwin's theory, he argued that since the german race was one of the last races to become civilised, it would be the master race as it had learned to survive with out civilised comforts....what he later admitted that the russians were most likely superior, as they were much later than the germans in coming to civilisation.

my personal ideas on these interpretations of darwin's theory.....rubbish
 

Husayn

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The original plan was to ship them all out of Europe. As long as the Nazis were winning that was always going to be the plan.

The 'Final Solution' only came about after the Nazis knew Germany was going to lose - and wanted to kill as many of them as possible.

I am not condoning it ofcourse.

However, you can blame the damn Allies for beating Germany back and forcing it to adopt this measure. They should have allowed Germany to conquer the world!

/sarcasm
 

Husayn

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You shouldn't blame the Weimar republic, you should blame the United Kingdom and France for forcing the Treaty of Versailles on the Germans.

They should have finished Germany off by invading and occupying them, then enforcing a stable system of government rather than letting the German nation collapse under repayments. This was after all the reason Hitler got into power - promises of revenge.
 

ManlyChief

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Husayn said:
You shouldn't blame the Weimar republic, you should blame the United Kingdom and France for forcing the Treaty of Versailles on the Germans.

They should have finished Germany off by invading and occupying them, then enforcing a stable system of government rather than letting the German nation collapse under repayments. This was after all the reason Hitler got into power - promises of revenge.
The influence of the Treaty of Versailles in the elevation of the National Socialists in Germany is misunderstood. It was not the the impact of the Treaty (i.e. the reparations) per se, but how the loss of the war, the Treaty, the fall of the Hohenzollern monarchy, the Bolshevik revolt in Russia, the hyperinlfation of 1923 and the global economic depression of 1929-c.1933 were presented to the German people as all products of an international Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy. To single out the Treaty is too restrictive an interpretation of events.

This aggregation of 'Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracies' was bolstered by the fanning of traditional latent European anti-Semitism, xenophobia and the more recent fear of racial degregation. The anti-Semitism bit is well-known, but often misunderstood: it was not, as some would clam, a uniquely Germanic prejudice, but a pan-European (and trans-Atlantic) mindset. Had one asked a Jew in 1920 the European country in which he thought an event like the Holocaust would most likely occur, he would have replied either Russia (where the pogrom was still a feature of daily life) or France (where the traditional Catholic anti-Judaism had transformed into a social anti-Semitism long ago, witness the Dreyfus affair in 1896).
 

launcher169

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ok what i mean about the weinmar republic is how they responded to the various challenges presented to them by hitler, by the hyperinflation, by the treaty of versailles.

there are many factors' to hitler's rise.....and once he had assumed power most of his policies were going to be implemented as outlined in Mein Kampf
 

Husayn

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Precisely what I mean ManlyChief. Rather than impose a Treaty of Versailles, crush the German army and occupy all of Germany in 1918-19 - rather than impose the Treaty whilst the German army and nation is largly intact. This would dispell any theories of betrayal at the hands of the Jews in the face of victory (as was thought by the Germans).
 

ManlyChief

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Husayn said:
Precisely what I mean ManlyChief. Rather than impose a Treaty of Versailles, crush the German army and occupy all of Germany in 1918-19 - rather than impose the Treaty whilst the German army and nation is largly intact. This would dispell any theories of betrayal at the hands of the Jews in the face of victory (as was thought by the Germans).
I think an occupation would actually have heightened the animocity - an occupation would have only served to fuel the racial degeneration angst which was started by the emasculation of the German nation in defeat and reinforced by the actions of the French Army in the area of Germany they did occupy - the Rhineland - with the French deliberately sending their black colonial troops there as a means of humiliating the Germans.

Occupation, while it may have averted the financial turmoil of the Weimar years, would not, alone, have dispelled the 'Jewis betrayal' theory. Russian Bolshevism and latent xenophobia were strong factors too, which an occupation could not have dealt with and, in my opinion, which an occupation would only exacerbate.
 

Husayn

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The Germans were not completely occupied in WW1, they started WW2.

The Germans WERE however in WW2, and they have remained quite militarily impotent since then.
 

ManlyChief

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Husayn said:
The Germans were not completely occupied in WW1, they started WW2.

The Germans WERE however in WW2, and they have remained quite militarily impotent since then.
But surely the post-ww2 occupation had less to do with keeping germany under heel and far more to do with keeping the USSR at bay. That force was not present after the Great War.
 

Husayn

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The Allies/Comintern had already agreed to a post-war occupation before the Allies had realised that the USSR was going to be a post-war threat. It was understood that the only way a future war could be prevented was by controlling the political and economic scene in Germany.

If the Allies had thought that the USSR was going to be their enemy in the Cold War, they would have surely captured Berlin. Churchill was the only one who was suspicious of Stalin from the get-go.
 

ManlyChief

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Husayn said:
The Allies/Comintern had already agreed to a post-war occupation before the Allies had realised that the USSR was going to be a post-war threat. It was understood that the only way a future war could be prevented was by controlling the political and economic scene in Germany.
I disagree. I believe that the French and the British feared communist government on the Continent at least as early as the Spanish Civil War - British FO documents reveal their support for Franco was a manifestation of this broader policy objective.

Husayn said:
If the Allies had thought that the USSR was going to be their enemy in the Cold War, they would have surely captured Berlin.
True, but the British, French and Americans were not in a position of military potency sufficient enough to capture Berlin. The British and Americans, remember, were still fighting the war with the Japanese and the French were certainly not capable of such strong military advances alone.
 

Husayn

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I think you need to take a look at the OOBs for 45. Then come back and tell me what you said above.....
 

ManlyChief

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Husayn said:
I think you need to take a look at the OOBs for 45. Then come back and tell me what you said above.....
I have looked at the order of battles for 1945 and do not quite grasp your point..?

Germany surrendered 7 May 1945; Japan surrendered 15 August 1945 - thus a three month period in which the Allies (but not the USSR - see below) still had to fight the Japanese:

* until 18.6.1945 the Allies were fighting the Japanese at Mindanao
* until 22.6.1945 the Allies were fighting the Japanese on Okinawa
* 10.7.1945 saw the start of a huge Allied bombing of Japan
* on 29.7.1945 the Japanese sunk the USS Indianapolis

and the list goes on ...

The USSR declared war on Japan, invading Manchuria on 8.8.1945, i.e. the day after the first atomic bomb was released.

My point was that the British and Americans still had to turn their attention to the problem of winning the war in the Pacific against an empire that simply would not capitualte even after it was clear they could not win and as such, the Brits and Americans would have found it very difficult to occupy Germany during that time to the extent Husayn seems to be advocating.
 

Husayn

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So post the OOB.

Your claim that the Allies would not have been able to capture Berlin is nonsense, they could and the Generals were willing - until Eisenhower (or whoever it was) ordered a halt so that the Russian's could do it (as was already agreed). It was well within their reach in WW2 to totally subdue Germany. It can hardly be called a 'war' against Japan, it was more like a series of bloodbaths being dealt by the Allies. The war there was won in Dec 7th 1941.

True, but the British, French and Americans were not in a position of military potency sufficient enough to capture Berlin. The British and Americans, remember, were still fighting the war with the Japanese and the French were certainly not capable of such strong military advances alone.
 

ManlyChief

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Husayn said:
So post the OOB.

Your claim that the Allies would not have been able to capture Berlin is nonsense, they could and the Generals were willing - until Eisenhower (or whoever it was) ordered a halt so that the Russian's could do it (as was already agreed). It was well within their reach in WW2 to totally subdue Germany. It can hardly be called a 'war' against Japan, it was more like a series of bloodbaths being dealt by the Allies. The war there was won in Dec 7th 1941.
(1) You are now not making sense - you are denying that there was a war with Japan. Regardless of what 'blood baths' were levelled on both sides, all participants recognised it as a war, even Japan and so to claim that it was not a war is contrary to logic and international humanitarian law. Here is a transcript of the Japanese declaration of war against the UK and the USA:

We, by grace of heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the Throne of a line unbroken for ages eternal, enjoin upon ye, Our loyal and brave subjects:

We hereby declare War on the United States of America and the British Empire. The men and officers of Our Army and Navy shall do their utmost in prosecuting the war. Our public servants of various departments shall perform faithfully and diligently their respective duties; the entire nation with a united will shall mobilize their total strength so that nothing will miscarry in the attainment of Our war aims.

To insure the stability of East Asia and to contribute to world peace is the far-sighted policy which was formulated by Our Great Illustrious Imperial Grandsire and Our Great Imperial Sire succeeding Him, and which We lay constantly to heart. To cultivate friendship among nations and to enjoy prosperity in common with all nations, has always been the guiding principle of Our EmpireÌs foreign policy. It has been truly unavoidable and far from Our wishes that Our Empire has been brought to cross swords with America and Britain. More than four years have passed since China, failing to comprehend the true intentions of Our Empire, and recklessly courting trouble, disturbed the peace of East Asia and compelled Our Empire to take up arms. Although there has been reestablished the National Government of China, with which Japan had effected neighborly intercourse and cooperation, the regime which has survived in Chungking, relying upon American and British protection, still continues its fratricidal opposition. Eager for the realization of their inordinate ambition to dominate the Orient, both America and Britain, giving support to the Chungking regime, have aggravated the disturbances in East Asia. Moreover these two Powers, inducing other countries to follow suit, increased military preparations on all sides of Our Empire to challenge Us. They have obstructed by every means Our peaceful commerce and finally resorted to a direct severance of economic relations, menacing gravely the existence of Our Empire. Patiently have We waited and long have We endured, in the hope that Our government might retrieve the situation in peace. But Our adversaries, showing not the least spirit of conciliation, have unduly delayed a settlement; and in the meantime they have intensified the economic and political pressure to compel thereby Our Empire to submission. This trend of affairs, would, if left unchecked, not only nullify Our EmpireÌs efforts of many years for the sake of the stabilization of East Asia, but also endanger the very existence of Our nation. The situation being such as it is, Our Empire, for its existence and self-defense has no other recourse but to appeal to arms and to crush every obstacle in its path.

The hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors guarding Us from above, We rely upon the loyalty and courage of Our subjects in Our confident expectation that the task bequeathed by Our forefathers will be carried forward and that the sources of evil will be speedily eradicated and an enduring peace immutably established in East Asia, preserving thereby the glory of Our Empire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Released by the Board of Information, December 8, 1941.)
This Imperial Rescript was carried on the front page of all Japanese newspapers in the evening editions of December eighth. The above version was released in English in the Japan Times & Advertiser. Until September 1945, on the eighth day of each month thereafter throughout the war, the Rescript was reprinted in the papers as the solemn reaffirmation of Japan's war aims.
(2) I do not see what use there is posting the OOB since I have already discussed what they reveal. Furthermore, I do not see why I should be under any obligation to post the OOB since you brought them into the debate in your post of 4.47pm today. Notwithstanding this, I have posted below the OOB of the War in Pacific from December 1941. (Additionally, I really do not understand your comment about the war being over with the bombing of Pearl Harbour ... this really makes no sense at all.)

War in the Pacific - order of battles and chronology
1941
December 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor, Hawaii; also attack the Philippines, Wake Island, Guam, Malaya, Thailand, Shanghai and Midway.
December 8, 1941 - U.S. and Britain declare war on Japan. Japanese land near Singapore and enter Thailand.
December 9, 1941 - China declares war on Japan.
December 10, 1941 - Japanese invade the Philippines and also seize Guam.
December 11, 1941 - Japanese invade Burma.
December 15, 1941 - First Japanese merchant ship sunk by a U.S. submarine.
December 16, 1941 - Japanese invade British Borneo.
December 18, 1941 - Japanese invade Hong Kong.
December 22, 1941 - Japanese invade Luzon in the Philippines.
December 23, 1941 - General Douglas MacArthur begins a withdrawal from Manila to Bataan; Japanese take Wake Island.
December 25, 1941 - British surrender at Hong Kong.
December 26, 1941 - Manila declared an open city.
December 27, 1941 - Japanese bomb Manila.

1942
January 2, 1942 - Manila and U.S. Naval base at Cavite captured by the Japanese.
January 7, 1942 - Japanese attack Bataan in the Philippines.
January 11, 1942 - Japanese invade Dutch East Indies and Dutch Borneo.
January 16, 1942 - Japanese begin an advance into Burma.
January 18, 1942 - German-Japanese-Italian military agreement signed in Berlin.
January 19, 1942 - Japanese take North Borneo.
January 23, 1942 - Japanese take Rabaul on New Britain in the Solomon Islands and also invade Bougainville, the largest island.
January 27, 1942 - First Japanese warship sunk by a U.S. submarine.
January 30/31 - The British withdraw into Singapore. The siege of Singapore then begins.
February 1, 1942 - First U.S. aircraft carrier offensive of the war as YORKTOWN and ENTERPRISE conduct air raids on Japanese bases in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands.
February 2, 1942 - Japanese invade Java in the Dutch East Indies.
February 8/9 - Japanese invade Singapore.
February 14, 1942 - Japanese invade Sumatra in the Dutch East Indies.
February 15, 1942 - British surrender at Singapore.
February 19, 1942 - Largest Japanese air raid since Pearl Harbor occurs against Darwin, Australia; Japanese invade Bali.
February 20, 1942 - First U.S. fighter ace of the war, Lt. Edward O'Hare from the LEXINGTON in action off Rabaul.
February 22, 1942 - President Franklin D. Roosevelt orders General MacArthur out of the Philippines.
February 23, 1942 - First Japanese attack on the U.S. mainland as a submarine shells an oil refinery near Santa Barbara, California.
February 24, 1942 - ENTERPRISE attacks Japanese on Wake Island.
February 26, 1942 - First U.S. carrier, the LANGLEY, is sunk by Japanese bombers.
February 27- March 1 - Japanese naval victory in the Battle of the Java Sea as the largest U.S. warship in the Far East, the HOUSTON, is sunk.
March 4, 1942 - Two Japanese flying boats bomb Pearl Harbor; ENTERPRISE attacks Marcus Island, just 1000 miles from Japan.
March 7, 1942 - British evacuate Rangoon in Burma; Japanese invade Salamaua and Lae on New Guinea.
March 8, 1942 - The Dutch on Java surrender to Japanese.
March 11, 1942 - Gen. MacArthur leaves Corregidor and is flown to Australia. Gen. Jonathan Wainwright becomes the new U.S. commander.
March 18, 1942 - Gen. MacArthur appointed commander of the Southwest Pacific Theater by President Roosevelt.
March 18, 1942 - War Relocation Authority established in the U.S. which eventually will round up 120,000 Japanese-Americans and transport them to barb-wired relocation centers. Despite the internment, over 17,000 Japanese-Americans sign up and fight for the U.S. in World War II in Europe, including the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, the most decorated unit in U.S. history.
March 23, 1942 - Japanese invade the Andaman Islands in the Bay of Bengal.
March 24, 1942 - Admiral Chester Nimitz appointed as Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific theater.
April 3, 1942 - Japanese attack U.S. and Filipino troops at Bataan.
April 6, 1942 - First U.S. troops arrive in Australia.
April 9, 1942 - U.S. forces on Bataan surrender unconditionally to the Japanese.
April 10, 1942 - Bataan Death March begins as 76,000 Allied POWs including 12,000 Americans are forced to walk 60 miles under a blazing sun without food or water toward a new POW camp, resulting in over 5,000 American deaths.
April 18, 1942 - Surprise U.S. 'Doolittle' B-25 air raid from the HORNET against Tokyo boosts Allied morale.
April 29, 1942 - Japanese take central Burma.
May 1, 1942 - Japanese occupy Mandalay in Burma.
May 3, 1942 - Japanese take Tulagi in the Solomon Islands.
May 5, 1942 - Japanese prepare to invade Midway and the Aleutian Islands.
May 6, 1942 - Japanese take Corregidor as Gen. Wainwright unconditionally surrenders all U.S. And Filipino forces in the Philippines.
May 7-8, 1942 - Japan suffers its first defeat of the war during the Battle of the Coral Sea off New Guinea - the first time in history that two opposing carrier forces fought only using aircraft without the opposing ships ever sighting each other.
May 12, 1942 - The last U.S. Troops holding out in the Philippines surrender on Mindanao.
May 20, 1942 - Japanese complete the capture of Burma and reach India.
June 4-5, 1942 - Turning point in the war occurs with a decisive victory for the U.S. against Japan in the Battle of Midway as squadrons of U.S. torpedo planes and dive bombers from ENTERPRISE, HORNET, and YORKTOWN attack and destroy four Japanese carriers, a cruiser, and damage another cruiser and two destroyers. U.S. loses YORKTOWN.
June 7, 1942 - Japanese invade the Aleutian Islands.
June 9, 1942 - Japanese postpone further plans to take Midway.
July 21, 1942 - Japanese land troops near Gona on New Guinea.
August 7, 1942 - The first U.S. amphibious landing of the Pacific War occurs as 1st Marine Division invades Tulagi and Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands.
August 8, 1942 - U.S. Marines take the unfinished airfield on Guadalcanal and name it Henderson Field after Maj. Lofton Henderson, a hero of Midway.
August 8/9 - A major U.S. naval disaster off Savo Island, north of Guadalcanal, as eight Japanese warships wage a night attack and sink three U.S. heavy cruisers, an Australian cruiser, and one U.S. destroyer, all in less than an hour. Another U.S. cruiser and two destroyers are damaged. Over 1,500 Allied crewmen are lost.
August 17, 1942 - 122 U.S. Marine raiders, transported by submarine, attack Makin Atoll in the Gilbert Islands.
August 21, 1942 - U.S. Marines repulse first major Japanese ground attack on Guadalcanal.
August 24, 1942 - U.S. And Japanese carriers meet in the Battle of the Eastern Solomons resulting in a Japanese defeat.
August 29, 1942 - The Red Cross announces Japan refuses to allow safe passage of ships containing supplies for U.S. POWs.
August 30, 1942 - U.S. Troops invade Adak Island in the Aleutian Islands.
September 9/10 - A Japanese floatplane flies two missions dropping incendiary bombs on U.S. forests in the state of Oregon - the only bombing of the continental U.S. during the war. Newspapers in the U.S. voluntarily withhold this information.
September 12-14 - Battle of Bloody Ridge on Guadalcanal.
September 15, 1942 - A Japanese submarine torpedo attack near the Solomon Islands results in the sinking of the Carrier WASP, Destroyer O'BRIEN and damage to the Battleship NORTH CAROLINA.
September 27, 1942 - British offensive in Burma.
October 11/12 - U.S. cruisers and destroyers defeat a Japanese task force in the Battle of Cape Esperance off Guadalcanal.
October 13, 1942 - The first U.S. Army troops, the 164th Infantry Regiment, land on Guadalcanal.
October 14/15 - Japanese bombard Henderson Field at night from warships then send troops ashore onto Guadalcanal in the morning as U.S. planes attack.
October 15/17 - Japanese bombard Henderson Field at night again from warships.
October 18, 1942 - Vice Admiral William F. Halsey named as the new commander of the South Pacific Area, in charge of the Solomons-New Guinea campaign.
October 26, 1942 - Battle of Santa Cruz off Guadalcanal between U.S. And Japanese warships results in the loss of the Carrier HORNET.
November 14/15 - U.S. And Japanese warships clash again off Guadalcanal resulting in the sinking of the U.S. Cruiser JUNEAU and the deaths of the five Sullivan brothers.
November 23/24 - Japanese air raid on Darwin, Australia.
November 30/31 - Battle of Tasafaronga off Guadalcanal.
December 2, 1942 - Enrico Fermi conducts the worlds first nuclear chain reaction test at the University of Chicago.
December 20-24 - Japanese air raids on Calcutta, India.
December 31, 1942 - Emperor Hirohito of Japan gives permission to his troops to withdraw from Guadalcanal after five months of bloody fighting against U.S. Forces

1943
January 2, 1943 - Allies take Buna in New Guinea.
January 22, 1943 - Allies defeat Japanese at Sanananda on New Guinea.
February 1, 1943 - Japanese begin evacuation of Guadalcanal.
February 8, 1943 - British-Indian forces begin guerrilla operations against Japanese in Burma.
February 9, 1943 - Japanese resistance on Guadalcanal ends.
March 2-4 - U.S. victory over Japanese in the Battle of Bismarck Sea.
April 18, 1943 - U.S. code breakers pinpoint the location of Japanese Admiral Yamamoto flying in a Japanese bomber near Bougainville in the Solomon Islands. Eighteen P-38 fighters then locate and shoot down Yamamoto.
April 21, 1943 - President Roosevelt announces the Japanese have executed several airmen from the Doolittle Raid.
April 22, 1943 - Japan announces captured Allied pilots will be given "one way tickets to hell."
May 10, 1943 - U.S. Troops invade Attu in the Aleutian Islands.
May 14, 1943 - A Japanese submarine sinks the Australian hospital ship CENTAUR resulting in 299 dead.
May 31, 1943 - Japanese end their occupation of the Aleutian Islands as the U.S. completes the capture of Attu.
June 1, 1943 - U.S. begins submarine warfare against Japanese shipping.
June 21, 1943 - Allies advance to New Georgia, Solomon Islands.
July 8, 1943 - B-24 Liberators flying from Midway bomb Japanese on Wake Island.
August 1/2 - A group of 15 U.S. PT-boats attempt to block Japanese convoys south of Kolombangra Island in the Solomon Islands. PT-109, commanded by Lt. John F. Kennedy, is rammed and sunk by the Japanese Cruiser AMAGIRI, killing two and badly injuring others. The crew survives as Kennedy aids one badly injured man by towing him to a nearby atoll.
August 6/7, 1943 - Battle of Vella Gulf in the Solomon Islands.
August 25, 1943 - Allies complete the occupation of New Georgia.
September 4, 1943 - Allies recapture Lae-Salamaua, New Guinea.
October 7, 1943 - Japanese execute approximately 100 American POWs on Wake Island.
October 26, 1943 - Emperor Hirohito states his country's situation is now "truly grave."
November 1, 1943 - U.S. Marines invade Bougainville in the Solomon Islands.
November 2, 1943 - Battle of Empress Augustusta Bay.
November 20, 1943 - U.S. Troops invade Makin and Tarawa in the Gilbert Islands.
November 23, 1943 - Japanese end resistance on Makin and Tarawa.
December 15, 1943 - U.S. Troops land on the Arawe Peninsula of New Britain in the Solomon Islands.
December 26, 1943 - Full Allied assault on New Britain as 1st Division Marines invade Cape Gloucester.

1944
January 9, 1944 - British and Indian troops recapture Maungdaw in Burma.
January 31, 1944 - U.S. Troops invade Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands.
February 1-7, 1944 - U.S. Troops capture Kwajalein and Majura Atolls in the Marshall Islands.
February 17/18 - U.S. Carrier-based planes destroy the Japanese naval base at Truk in the Caroline Islands.
February 20, 1944 - U.S. Carrier-based and land-based planes destroy the Japanese base at Rabaul.
February 23, 1944 - U.S. Carrier-based planes attack the Mariana Islands.
February 24, 1944 - Merrill's Marauders begin a ground campaign in northern Burma.
March 5, 1944 - Gen. Wingate's groups begin operations behind Japanese lines in Burma.
March 15, 1944 - Japanese begin offensive toward Imphal and Kohima.
April 17, 1944 - Japanese begin their last offensive in China, attacking U.S. air bases in eastern China.
April 22, 1944 - Allies invade Aitape and Hollandia in New Guinea.
May 27, 1944 - Allies invade Biak Island, New Guinea.
June 5, 1944 - The first mission by B-29 Superfortress bombers occurs as 77 planes bomb Japanese railway facilities at Bangkok, Thailand.
June 15, 1944 - U.S. Marines invade Saipan in the Mariana Islands.
June 15/16 - The first bombing raid on Japan since the Doolittle raid of April 1942, as 47 B-29s based in Bengel, India, target the steel works at Yawata.
June 19, 1944 - The "Marianas Turkey Shoot" occurs as U.S. Carrier-based fighters shoot down 220 Japanese planes, while only 20 American planes are lost.
July 8, 1944 - Japanese withdraw from Imphal.
July 19, 1944 - U.S. Marines invade Guam in the Marianas.
July 24, 1944 - U.S. Marines invade Tinian.
July 27, 1944 - American troops complete the liberation of Guam.
August 3, 1944 - U.S. And Chinese troops take Myitkyina after a two month siege.
August 8, 1944 - American troops complete the capture of the Mariana Islands.
September 15, 1944 - U.S. Troops invade Morotai and the Paulaus.
October 11, 1944 - U.S. Air raids against Okinawa.
October 18, 1944 - Fourteen B-29s based on the Marianas attack the Japanese base at Truk.
October 20, 1944 - U.S. Sixth Army invades Leyte in the Philippines.
October 23-26 - Battle of Leyte Gulf results in a decisive U.S. Naval victory.
October 25, 1944 - The first suicide air (Kamikaze) attacks occur against U.S. warships in Leyte Gulf. By the end of the war, Japan will have sent an estimated 2,257 aircraft. "The only weapon I feared in the war," Adm. Halsey will say later.
November 11, 1944 - Iwo Jima bombarded by the U.S. Navy.
November 24, 1944 - Twenty four B-29s bomb the Nakajima aircraft factory near Tokyo.
December 15, 1944 - U.S. Troops invade Mindoro in the Philippines.
December 17, 1944 - The U.S. Army Air Force begins preparations for dropping the Atomic Bomb by establishing the 509th Composite Group to operate the B-29s that will deliver the bomb.

1945
January 3, 1945 - Gen. MacArthur is placed in command of all U.S. ground forces and Adm. Nimitz in command of all naval forces in preparation for planned assaults against Iwo Jima, Okinawa and Japan itself.
January 4, 1945 - British occupy Akyab in Burma.
January 9, 1945 - U.S. Sixth Army invades Lingayen Gulf on Luzon in the Philippines.
January 11, 1945 - Air raid against Japanese bases in Indochina by U.S. Carrier-based planes.
January 28, 1945 - The Burma road is reopened.
February 3, 1945 - U.S. Sixth Army attacks Japanese in Manila.
February 16, 1945 - U.S. Troops recapture Bataan in the Philippines.
February 19, 1945 - U.S. Marines invade Iwo Jima.
March 1, 1945 - A U.S. submarine sinks a Japanese merchant ship loaded with supplies for Allied POWs, resulting in a court martial for the captain of the submarine, since the ship had been granted safe passage by the U.S. Government.
March 2, 1945 - U.S. airborne troops recapture Corregidor in the Philippines.
March 3, 1945 - U.S. And Filipino troops take Manila.
March 9/10 - Fifteen square miles of Tokyo erupts in flames after it is fire bombed by 279 B-29s.
March 10, 1945 - U.S. Eighth Army invades Zamboanga Peninsula on Mindanao in the Philippines.
March 20, 1945 - British troops liberate Mandalay, Burma.
March 27, 1945 - B-29s lay mines in Japan's Shimonoseki Strait to interrupt shipping.
April 1, 1945 - The final amphibious landing of the war occurs as the U.S. Tenth Army invades Okinawa.
April 7, 1945 - B-29s fly their first fighter-escorted mission against Japan with P-51 Mustangs based on Iwo Jima; U.S. Carrier-based fighters sink the super battleship YAMATO and several escort vessels which planned to attack U.S. Forces at Okinawa.
April 12, 1945 - President Roosevelt dies, succeeded by Harry S. Truman.
May 7 - Germany Surrenders in Europe
May 8, 1945 - Victory in Europe Day.
May 20, 1945 - Japanese begin withdrawal from China.
May 25, 1945 - U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff approve Operation Olympic, the invasion of Japan, scheduled for November 1.
June 9, 1945 - Japanese Premier Suzuki announces Japan will fight to the very end rather than accept unconditional surrender.
June 18, 1945 - Japanese resistance ends on Mindanao in the Philippines.
June 22, 1945 - Japanese resistance ends on Okinawa as the U.S. Tenth Army completes its capture.
June 28, 1945 - MacArthur's headquarters announces the end of all Japanese resistance in the Philippines.
July 5, 1945 - Liberation of Philippines declared.
July 10, 1945 - 1,000 bomber raids against Japan begin.
July 14, 1945 - The first U.S. Naval bombardment of Japanese home islands.
July 16, 1945 - First Atomic Bomb is successfully tested in the U.S.
July 26, 1945 - Components of the Atomic Bomb "Little Boy" are unloaded at Tinian Island in the South Pacific.
July 29, 1945 - A Japanese submarine sinks the Cruiser INDIANAPOLIS resulting in the loss of 881 crewmen. The ship sinks before a radio message can be sent out leaving survivors adrift for two days.
August 6, 1945 - First Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima from a B-29 flown by Col. Paul Tibbets.
August 8, 1945 - U.S.S.R. declares war on Japan then invades Manchuria.
August 9, 1945 - Second Atomic Bomb is dropped on Nagasaki from a B-29 flown by Maj. Charles Sweeney -- Emperor Hirohito and Japanese Prime Minister Suzuki then decide to seek an immediate peace with the Allies.
August 14, 1945 - Japanese accept unconditional surrender; Gen. MacArthur is appointed to head the occupation forces in Japan.
August 16, 1945 - Gen. Wainwright, a POW since May 6, 1942, is released from a POW camp in Manchuria.
August 27, 1945 - B-29s drop supplies to Allied POWs in China.
August 29, 1945 - The Soviets shoot down a B-29 dropping supplies to POWs in Korea; U.S. Troops land near Tokyo to begin the occupation of Japan.
August 30, 1945 - The British reoccupy Hong Kong.
September 2, 1945 - Formal Japanese surrender ceremony on board the MISSOURI in Tokyo Bay as 1,000 carrier-based planes fly overhead; President Truman declares VJ Day.
September 3, 1945 - The Japanese commander in the Philippines, Gen. Yamashita, surrenders to Gen. Wainwright at Baguio.
September 4, 1945 - Japanese troops on Wake Island surrender.
September 5, 1945 - British land in Singapore.
September 8, 1945 - MacArthur enters Tokyo.
September 9, 1945 - Japanese in Korea surrender.
September 13, 1945 - Japanese in Burma surrender.
As I said before, I do not see the relevence of the OOB for your argument.
 
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Husayn

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The relevance has to do with this:

True, but the British, French and Americans were not in a position of military potency sufficient enough to capture Berlin.
Regardless of what was happening on the political scene, the Allies were definately in a position to capture Berlin.

This history that you are posting has nothing to do with the fact that the Allies were able to capture Berlin.

You earlier made the claim:

But surely the post-ww2 occupation had less to do with keeping germany under heel and far more to do with keeping the USSR at bay. That force was not present after the Great War.
Here you imply that the Allies decided to occupy Germany to keep Russia at bay, when this was never the case in real life. The Allies determined to occupy Germany for the reasons stated earlier - preventing a future war - and nothing was thought about the Russians. This was precisely the reason why Russia was so successful in its post-war policies, because it had planned ahead - the Allies did not.

This was the original focus of the discussion - not whether the Allies were in a position to capture Berlin - which is an un-disputed fact.
 

ManlyChief

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Husayn said:
The relevance has to do with this:



Regardless of what was happening on the political scene, the Allies were definately in a position to capture Berlin.

This history that you are posting has nothing to do with the fact that the Allies were able to capture Berlin.

You earlier made the claim:



Here you imply that the Allies decided to occupy Germany to keep Russia at bay, when this was never the case in real life. The Allies determined to occupy Germany for the reasons stated earlier - preventing a future war - and nothing was thought about the Russians. This was precisely the reason why Russia was so successful in its post-war policies, because it had planned ahead - the Allies did not.

This was the original focus of the discussion - not whether the Allies were in a position to capture Berlin - which is an un-disputed fact.
Will you be posting any material supporting your arguement?

Specifically I would like some reference to scholarly material or primary sources supporting your claims that:

(1) the raison d'etre of the Allied occupation was to ensure the impotence of Germany, i.e.
Husayn said:
The Allies determined to occupy Germany for the reasons stated earlier - preventing a future war - and nothing was thought about the Russians
; and

(2) the UK and USA could have captured and held Berlin (contrary to you assertion, this is not 'an un-disputed fact' but at the very heart of the debate).

Husayn said:
This history that you are posting has nothing to do with the fact that the Allies were able to capture Berlin.
The material I posted was in response to your ludicrous claim about the conflict with the Japanese not being a 'war' and in response you a request you made respectively. Nonetheless, would you please explain precisely why the UK and USA's commitments in the Pacific are not relevant to the argument? They are at the centre of my argument which, to clarify once again is this:

A. The post-war occupation of the BDR by the British and Americans was primarily a measure to check Soviet expansion into Western Europe.

B. That the post-war occupation may have been pre-arranged with the Soviet leadership does not suggest that the British and Americans did not view the Soviets as a significant political threat.

C. That the British and Americans did not capture Berlin does not, when taken with an holistic view of the conflicts in Europe and the Pacific, prove that the British and Americans wanted the Soviets to take it per se. Rather the failure to capture and hold Berlin can be seen as a manifestation of the military stresses placed on the British and Americans by the continuing war in the Pacific, which stress was not, at that time, placed on the Soviet forces to the same degree.
 

Husayn

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Have you ever heard of the Yalta conference?

The occupation of Germany as stated at this conference was to:

"destroy German militarism and Nazism and to ensure that Germany will never again be able to disturb the peace of the world"

Other terms:

The Soviets reaffirmed their intention to fight Japan and in return expected to occupy areas in the East. The secret Yalta agreement was signed on February 11, 1945 by Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin in which Russia agreed to declare war on Japan "in two or three months" after the surrender of Germany, in return for: (1) Preservation of the status quo in Outer Mongolia, (2) return of Southern Sakhalin and adjacent islands, internationalization of Dairen, restoration of Port Arthur as a leased naval base, joint Chinese-Russian operation of the Chinese Eastern Railroad and the South Manchurian Railroad, which provides an outlet for Dairen ("China shall maintain full sovereignty in Manchuria"); (3) Kurile Islands to be "handed over" to Russia. In this agreement, the United States and Britain also agreed to support Ukraine and White Russia as separate states in the UN. Moreover, the United States, Britain and Russia gave themselves "supreme authority" to take any steps deemed necessary to prevent future German aggression, including "dismemberment" of Germany.

Does this seem as though it was a containment strategy? Ofcourse it wasn't, the Allies were fooled.
 

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