Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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miegoreng

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These arguements about God will clearly not be resolved on this thread. People far more intelligent then us have argued both ways. Don't be so ignorant to think your definitley right.
But as for me I think God exists because I can't image this whole universe in all it's glory and wonder, with all our abilities and power came from nothing.
But I'm not sure why a God would bother creating us in the first place.

Also, I don't believe in hell. How unfair it is to Hitler that he wasn't killed as a baby and sent to heaven? So he wasn't killed when he was a baby. It comes down to chance. I don't think God would allow that.
 

BradCube

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3unitz said:
nope, i did read the link, then went back to my bible and read through the flood again. did you read genesis 7:21-24? i cant be bothered looking at other translations but from NIV (if you didnt read it):

every living thing that moved on the earth perished - birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all of mankind. everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. only noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

its still a matter of personal opinion, but to me there still seems to be significant emphasis on a global flood :eek:
Yeah, very interesting. I read it through the first time and thought that it definitely affirmed your position. However, after looking at it again, it is constantly referring to Earth rather than world. Not sure if that is this translation but if that is the case in the original text then it could simply talking about the the earth/ground beneath them in all of these cases.

Definitely not a conclusive counter by an means but probably worth looking at.
 

BradCube

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3unitz said:
Very good read indeed. It forced me to go on a little bit of a research hunt actually. I came across this. Hard website to read but the stuff I found in their was quite interesting.

I'll place one of the quotes from this article in our thread as it is relevant for more than just the flood:

"The author of Genesis has made choices. He had to select what information to include. He had to decide how to communicate that information effectively to his audience and how to provide it with the emphasis that would serve his purposes. He had to guide his literary art with discretion so that it would contribute productively to his purpose.

Our belief in inspiration suggests that God's hand was behind all of these choices. We are not content to consider the book of Genesis as simply the work of a human author. Yet it is the assumption of this commentary that God's purpose is carried out through the human author's purpose. As a result, that author should be considered the link to the authoritative Word of God. We understand God's inspired message when we understand the human author's message. God's communication is to Israel through the author of Genesis, but we believe that the book constitutes a part of God's revelation of himself, so its vitality remains undiminished for us today.

Though that message transcends culture, the form it was given in is, to some extent, culture-bound. The task before us as interpreters is to try to dissipate the culturally induced fog so that we can establish a strong authority link to God's revelation through the communication of that revelation by his chosen spokesman. The anticipated result is that we will be able to interpret the details of the text in relation to the author's purpose rather than tailoring our interpretation to whatever modern debates have captured our attention. ... None of us is immune to the syndrome of hearing what we want to hear. We are all inclined to superimpose our culture and our expectations on a text. In the case of a biblical text, the problem becomes acute because we also tend to superimpose our theology on a text and even excuse that imposition by attributing the meaning we want to derive from it to the divine author if we do not find it on the human level.

... We will assume a level of integrity to the communication that transpired between the author and his audience-that is, that he was intentionally communicating something meaningful and that he had every reason to expect his audience would understand what he meant. We will assume that although there may be more truth than the author knew, the truth he did know and communicate was authoritative and inspired. It is therefore the human author's communication that will be our target as we seek out God's Word. At times we will be able to identify other layers of meaning that transcend the human author, but it is the initial context that serves as the foundation for any other layers. This foundational layer is the most ignored, the most difficult to penetrate, and the most important, so it will be our primary focus."

(Walton, J.H., "Genesis," The NIV Application Commentary, Zondervan: Grand Rapids MI, 2001, pp.19-20).
To sum up quickly, this quote basically states that in order for us to get the most accurate interpretation of what God was saying through authors in the bible we must look at the context and audience the author was writing to. It is no good to simply state a single verse and deem the bible as false because it contradicts with another single verse.

In this regard, I submit that when looking at biblical consistencies (or lack thereof) we fully examine the actual meaning of the text based on the audience being written to and the context in which it was written and interpreted.
 

DownInFlames

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3unitz said:
do you have anything to support your reasoning that god (christian god?) even exists?
Beleiving something because you see it is not faith. What kind of reasoning could I possibly provide you with that you would not think was ridiculous? You don't reason that God, any god exists. You feel it. How do you know that your language teacher isn't bullshitting you and teaching you oompa-loompa instead of french?

At that, I'm stepping out of this thread.
 
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minijumbuk

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Of course God exists! He exists in whoever believes in him. =)

And that goes for all other type of religions as well =P
 

KFunk

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BradCube said:
On another note, I forgot to mention that I started to work through the paper on evolution of reciprocity. I didn't make it very far for 3 reasons:

1. I was extremely tired
2. The explanations were quite wordy and required a great deal of concentration
3. It seemed to be making assumptions about a few things (ie the benefit of giving is greater than that of receiving)

Now, obviously point (1) + (2) don't hold any weight, but they do explain why I may have misunderstood (3). So with that, would you be able to explain to me where this assumption came from and if it was anything more than intuition on their part?
I assume you mean the following passage (or similar): "In the simplest model [of direct reciprocity], the altruistic act consists in conferring a benefit b on the recipient at a cost c to the donor. We shall always assume that the cost is smaller than the benefit, so that if the act is returned, both individuals experience a game. The payoff structure yields an instance of the familiar Prisoner's Dilemma game."

Things to note:

- The assumption is not that benefit is greater than cost for all actions which could be considered altruism. E.g. one could sacrifice their life in order to provide another person with a years subscription to Vogue Magazine. Clearly the cost exceeds the benefit in this case.

- Rather, the reference is to a model of development of altruistic behavior which only applies to those acts for which the assumption (b > c) holds. What is then established is that, provided b > c, a tendency to perform these actions, in semi-stable relationships, will work out to the benefit of both parties. Given that such tendencies are mutually advantageous (increasing the evolutionary fitness of all involved) one could expect such tendencies to develop over generations.

- A similar assumption will hold for arguments pertaining to indirect reciprocity. It is not an unreasonable assumption because one would not expect actions whose costs exceed their benefits to emerge in the long run. This is not to say that these actions will be eliminated altogether - actions are performed where the cost > benefit and such actions may be driven, in part, by evolution derrived tendencies (applied in maladaptive situations). However, the evolutionary arguments that can be made only properly hold where b > c.

- You can see rough evidence for a tendency to weigh cost and benefit in human interactions. For example, I remember my Grandpa always saying "if a small action, taking little effort on your part, will make another person's life much easier then it would seem senseless not to do it." Similarly, a person will often be viewed as cruel/mean/unreasonable if they deny a small request from a person in pain/need/etc. which would aid them a great deal. Consider an individual who is motionless on a couch, suffering from a bout of influenza. They might ask a friend or family member to turn off the overhead lights because they are suffering form light sensitivity. A person who refuses this request, on the basis of laziness or a 'why don't you do it?' response, will probably be viewed as cruel or unreasonable. On the other hand, if the sick person asks someone to walk 5km to the nearest pharmacy (they're in the country, say) to get some panadol then it would seem more reasonable to deny the request. Not the most inventive example, but I'm sure you can spot similar trends.
 

Gay Captain

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God Hates Shrimp

Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Why stop at protesting gay marriage? Bring all of God's law unto the heathens and the sodomites. We call upon all Christians to join the crusade against Long John Silver's and Red Lobster. Yea, even Popeye's shall be cleansed. The name of Bubba shall be anathema. We must stop the unbelievers from destroying the sanctity of our restaurants.

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.
 

chicky_pie

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Gay Captain said:
God Hates Shrimp

Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Why stop at protesting gay marriage? Bring all of God's law unto the heathens and the sodomites. We call upon all Christians to join the crusade against Long John Silver's and Red Lobster. Yea, even Popeye's shall be cleansed. The name of Bubba shall be anathema. We must stop the unbelievers from destroying the sanctity of our restaurants.

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

The bible's saying not to eat our ancestors? :D
 

BradCube

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Hey 3unitz, I think I found the original paper that some of these references are coming from. I haven't read it all - only the parts relevant to the flood. I've attached it for yourself and anyone else that would like to have a read.

3unitz said:
"the Old Testament writers had no concept of the earth as a round globe with a circumference of 25,000 miles" and so "What we can visualize as the earth today is entirely different from what they could have pictured as a definition of the word"
which is why i dont think the bible was divinely inspired...
I think what they were getting at is the very definition of the word eres. If there is no word to describe the world we know we have today then it was impossible for the author to describe the world we have using his vocabulary at that time.
 

BradCube

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3unitz said:
link aint working for me >=o
That's really odd. I clicked on it the first time and it loaded perfectly, then when I tried the second time it didn't work at all.

For those also having troubles here is the original url that it came from: www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Fischer.pdf

You can either click on that link and it should go straight to that document or you can right click the link and select "Save target as.." to save it onto your computer :)
 

BradCube

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3unitz said:
ok i read it.

1. i want to know why someone who claims to study hebrew wrote: "Note in my article that Moses is not satisfied to use simply the word eretz, which
could be ambiguous, but uses 7 different terms and phrases that simply
cannot be gainsaid as being universal." (from the site i posted previously)
and also "Thus, even though tebel does often refer to the
whole world, it is also not free from ambiguity any more than eretz" as a rebuttal to this still hasnt been mentioned. ill pursue further when i have time.
Agreed, I would also like to know what's up with that.

3unitz said:
2. why is the bible poetic? people can just interpret however they want, and it makes god look like he knew nothing about the underlying science of the world. it just sounds like people are twisting the bibles words and ways of interpretation to fit facts in ad hoc hypotheses.
Seems a bit ridiculous to me too. I would think that it appears that way because it was written to an audience such a long time ago and has been translated to our own language. Just as a Japanese text from 2000 or more years ago would also seem a bit poetic in our own language today.

It's for this reason that great care should be taken in interpreting the bible. It seems critical to look at the context the passage was written in and whom it was addressed to.
 
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BradCube said:
Seems a bit ridiculous to me too. I would think that it appears that way because it was written to an audience such a long time ago and has been translated to our own language. Just as a Japanese text from 2000 or more years ago would also seem a bit poetic in our own language today.

It's for this reason that great care should be taken in interpreting the bible. It seems critical to look at the context the passage was written in and whom it was addressed to.
The reason the Bible reads poetically is because it wasn't originally written down, instead it was transmitted orally. Making it poetic enabled it to be more easily remembered and therefore accurately transmitted. In Jewish tradition much of Jewish Law (halacha) was originally transmitted orally from Moses to Joshua, to the elders, to the rabbis who recorded it in the Talmud.

It is also important to study the Bible in its original language!! Many nuances of the Hebrew language cannot be translated to English, which means meanings of phrases or words cannot be understood in English/have a variety of acceptable translations. This obviously influences our understanding of the Bible.

Re the non-eating of certain seafoods Gay Captain, you forget that Christians seem to think they can pick and choose from the Old Testament!! :p Obviously the early Christian authorities enjoyed their seafood and decided that Christianity wouldn't accept this portion of the Bible...
 

boris

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The Bible says a lot of shit.


None of it is true.


The end.
 

matthew sefton

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Unlike the ideals presented in science, which are founded on logic and reason, most religeon (and christianity in this case) are systems of faith. It therefore makes it quite difficult to dismiss the existence of God through arguments founded on scientific belief.
For example, the scientific evidence of evolution cannot be used as evidence against christianity because christianity does not believe in science, or for that matter evidence.
Secondly although exerts from the bible can be used to challenge the principles of the christian religeon they cannot be used as a primary source to invalidate the existence of the christian God. They are written by humans and are therefore not only secondary sources but are also subject to subcelestial, human flaws.

I think the imperitive debate is not regarding Gods existence but rather, if he does or dosnt exist, would I worship (him) as the alpha-omega?
After all, do you really wish to look up to a god who (as the secondary sources indicate) says that if your wife cheats on you, you may stone her to death?
I know I do!
 

boris

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Secondly although exerts from the bible can be used to challenge the principles of the christian religeon they cannot be used as a primary source to invalidate the existence of the christian God.
Invalid argument. If Christians can use the Bible as their sole source of proof for the existance of a God, then by the same token its fallibility can be used to descredit the existance of a God.
 

KFunk

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matthew sefton said:
Unlike the ideals presented in science, which are founded on logic and reason, most religeon (and christianity in this case) are systems of faith. It therefore makes it quite difficult to dismiss the existence of God through arguments founded on scientific belief.
For example, the scientific evidence of evolution cannot be used as evidence against christianity because christianity does not believe in science, or for that matter evidence.
I'm not sure that this is quite right. Most reasonable theologians accept the scientific method to some degree. If they don't accept that much of science accurately describes reality then they have to do a lot of ad hoc backtracking in order to explain how we manage to launch satellites and communicate with mobile phones. Science is too successful to deny outright.

What appears to be more common, as best as I can tell, is for theologians to claim that there are ways to gain knowledge outside of the scientific method. In other words, they will claim that while the rational (i.e. logical) and empirical (i.e. observational) approaches yield knowledge, they are not the only methods which yield knowledge. Commonly, theologians will suggest that knowledge gained by revelation is a proper form of knowledge which should be given (roughly) equal standing.

Another approach (notably advocated by Alvin Plantinga) is that belief in god is 'properly basic'. The argument relies on an approach which asserts that our beliefs can't rely on an infinite chain of justifying beliefs and so must bottom out somewhere. Some beliefs are hard to justify beyond saying that they are 'clearly true', for example our belief that we can logically conclude "Q" from the combined beliefs "P" and "If P then Q". Such beliefs which we consider clearly true without seeking further justification can be considered 'properly basic'. Thus, in a similar vein, thinkers such as Alvin Plantinga have suggested that the existence of god has a similarly obvious, properly basic quality.

I will admit, of course, that many people do nonetheless deny science from the perspective of religion. However, I believe they are foolish to do so and I suspect that many who deny science do so as part of a gut, or reflex, reaction without thinking through some of the problems involved. (Of course, you can try to deny individual theories and facts espoused by science such as evolution without denying the entire package).
 

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matthew sefton said:
Unlike the ideals presented in science, which are founded on logic and reason, most religeon (and christianity in this case) are systems of faith. It therefore makes it quite difficult to dismiss the existence of God through arguments founded on scientific belief.
You don't need to dismiss it on anything in particular

You just dismiss it full stop, since that's as much of a reason as you need to believe it in the first place.
 

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