Bush's Creationism in schools remarks (1 Viewer)

Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Messages
172
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
To appease the evangelists, the syllabus now allows Divine Intervention as option e) on every question and in the interests of avoiding discrimination lawsuits it is a correct response to each question.
 
S

Shuter

Guest
Henry_Kissinger said:
Nothing in science is proven.

Should we 'teach the controversy' about gravity?
We do to a degree, we outline how we're not sure if its a force or what it is, and we know very little about it. Also we outline many of the contrversies with waves etc. However evolution seems to be one area where few of the contraversies are outlines, and it is just taught as a rote fact.
 
S

Shuter

Guest
Rafy said:
How did that happen?
The same way I come to my conclusions here, I don't treat things as fact before I consider all the evidence and considering all the possible conclusions.
 

Xayma

Lacking creativity
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
5,953
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Isn't that the multiple choice test adminstered?

Wow you got 100% in year 6...

Gravity is a bad example since there isnt a generally accepted theory of gravity.

But why should ID be advocated when there are other methods that just as well do it, how about dream time stories to fill in evolutionary gaps?
 

Xayma

Lacking creativity
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
5,953
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
No, I didn't. But that test consists of very little evidence consideration, and considering all the possible conclusions.

Purely being a multiple choice test means that all possible conclusions can't be considered, so your comparison to this situation above is weak at best.

November 15, 2005
[size=+1]Philosophers Notwithstanding, Kansas School Board Redefines Science[/size]
By DENNIS OVERBYE


Once it was the left who wanted to redefine science.

In the early 1990's, writers like the Czech playwright and former president Vaclav Havel and the French philosopher Bruno Latour proclaimed "the end of objectivity." The laws of science were constructed rather than discovered, some academics said; science was just another way of looking at the world, a servant of corporate and military interests. Everybody had a claim on truth.

The right defended the traditional notion of science back then. Now it is the right that is trying to change it.

On Tuesday, fueled by the popular opposition to the Darwinian theory of evolution, the Kansas State Board of Education stepped into this fraught philosophical territory. In the course of revising the state's science standards to include criticism of evolution, the board promulgated a new definition of science itself.

The changes in the official state definition are subtle and lawyerly, and involve mainly the removal of two words: "natural explanations." But they are a red flag to scientists, who say the changes obliterate the distinction between the natural and the supernatural that goes back to Galileo and the foundations of science.

The old definition reads in part, "Science is the human activity of seeking natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us." The new one calls science "a systematic method of continuing investigation that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena."

Adrian Melott, a physics professor at the University of Kansas who has long been fighting Darwin's opponents, said, "The only reason to take out 'natural explanations' is if you want to open the door to supernatural explanations."

Gerald Holton, a professor of the history of science at Harvard, said removing those two words and the framework they set means "anything goes."

The authors of these changes say that presuming the laws of science can explain all natural phenomena promotes materialism, secular humanism, atheism and leads to the idea that life is accidental. Indeed, they say in material online at kansasscience2005.com, it may even be unconstitutional to promulgate that attitude in a classroom because it is not ideologically "neutral."

But many scientists say that characterization is an overstatement of the claims of science. The scientist's job description, said Steven Weinberg, a physicist and Nobel laureate at the University of Texas, is to search for natural explanations, just as a mechanic looks for mechanical reasons why a car won't run.

"This doesn't mean that they commit themselves to the view that this is all there is," Dr. Weinberg wrote in an e-mail message. "Many scientists (including me) think that this is the case, but other scientists are religious, and believe that what is observed in nature is at least in part a result of God's will."

The opposition to evolution, of course, is as old as the theory itself. "This is a very long story," said Dr. Holton, who attributed its recent prominence to politics and the drive by many religious conservatives to tar science with the brush of materialism.

How long the Kansas changes will last is anyone's guess. The state board tried to abolish the teaching of evolution and the Big Bang in schools six years ago, only to reverse course in 2001.

As it happened, the Kansas vote last week came on the same day that voters in Dover, Pa., ousted the local school board that had been sued for introducing the teaching of intelligent design.

As Dr. Weinberg noted, scientists and philosophers have been trying to define science, mostly unsuccessfully, for centuries.

When pressed for a definition of what they do, many scientists eventually fall back on the notion of falsifiability propounded by the philosopher Karl Popper. A scientific statement, he said, is one that can be proved wrong, like "the sun always rises in the east" or "light in a vacuum travels 186,000 miles a second." By Popper's rules, a law of science can never be proved; it can only be used to make a prediction that can be tested, with the possibility of being proved wrong.

But the rules get fuzzy in practice. For example, what is the role of intuition in analyzing a foggy set of data points? James Robert Brown, a philosopher of science at the University of Toronto, said in an e-mail message: "It's the widespread belief that so-called scientific method is a clear, well-understood thing. Not so." It is learned by doing, he added, and for that good examples and teachers are needed.

One thing scientists agree on, though, is that the requirement of testability excludes supernatural explanations. The supernatural, by definition, does not have to follow any rules or regularities, so it cannot be tested. "The only claim regularly made by the pro-science side is that supernatural explanations are empty," Dr. Brown said.

The redefinition by the Kansas board will have nothing to do with how science is performed, in Kansas or anywhere else. But Dr. Holton said that if more states changed their standards, it could complicate the lives of science teachers and students around the nation.

He added that Galileo - who started it all, and paid the price - had "a wonderful way" of separating the supernatural from the natural. There are two equally worthy ways to understand the divine, Galileo said. "One was reverent contemplation of the Bible, God's word," Dr. Holton said. "The other was through scientific contemplation of the world, which is his creation.

"That is the view that I hope the Kansas school board would have adopted."
Source: New York Times
 
Last edited:

Xayma

Lacking creativity
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
5,953
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Just on that note shuter, what evidence is there for intelligent design that supports the argument rather then just looks at holes in evolution?
 

Rafy

Retired
Joined
Sep 30, 2004
Messages
10,719
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
Uni Grad
2008
SMH letters.

Back to the drawing board for intelligent design

November 16, 2005

Deborah Smith is correct to say that all scientific ideas are theories, subject to testing, verification, amendment or abandonment as a result ("The God of small things", November 15). However, there are still those in the media, scientific and educational communities who present all such theories as undisputed facts. Darwin himself appears to have wanted a foot in both the design and natural selection camps. He wrote the following in a letter to Asa Gray: "I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe, and especially the nature of man, and to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance."
Philip Cooney Wentworth Falls

The most important thing taught in school science is the scientific method - come up with a hypothesis, and test it to see if it fails; if it doesn't, then it might be true ("In a class of their own", November 15). The problem with intelligent design is that it is based on either a misunderstanding or a rejection of the scientific method (how can you test it?), so teaching it as a scientific theory would undermine the teaching of the scientific method. Such untestable theories are welcome for debate in philosophy, which is where it should be debated.
Felix Lawrence Griffith

If doubts about evolution are to be taught in science classes, it seems only fair that doubts about religion be taught in churches.
Damian Carter Double Bay

Given that intelligent design has a single DVD resource available in Australia; given that no one is advocating the removal of evolution from the classroom; and given that it will not be tested in HSC exams ("In a class of their own", Herald, November 15) - why all the fuss? One would think the evolutionists have something to hide, from the outpouring of derision at a few simple questions about the missing pieces of evolutionary theory.
Jon Guyer Cammeray

If we must have an intelligent designer, why not one of local, rather than Middle Eastern, origins? Let's hear it for the Rainbow Serpent.
Margaret Dunlop Bonny Hills

Apart from anything else, have the OH&S consequences of teaching intelligent design been considered. How can we expect the students to carry around all those bulky clay tablets to use with their cuneiform sticks?
Graeme Finn St Peters

As a scientist and a Christian, I think that proponents of intelligent design have completely missed the point: an omnipotent God, being omnipotent, surely could have created life from cream cheese if He so wished? The whole point of religion is to have faith, and you can't have faith if you replace it with a load of simple-minded, escapist pseudo-science.

I suggest that proponents of "intelligent design" do a degree in molecular biology and a PhD in molecular evolution and read Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. This should at least give them a healthy respect for the gargantuan complexities of God's creation, and may also give them some authority when they try to dictate what young people learn in school.
Daniel Emlyn-Jones Canberra (ACT)

Brian Wilder's letter does not go far enough (Letters, November 15). Why should taxpayers subsidise or permit the teaching of anything they disagree with in any school. I want my taxes to be used for things that matter to me and are true for me. Forget the common good, forget tolerance, forget love one another, forget multiculturalism. Let's only give money to people who think like us, live near us, look like us and believe with us. What? They already tried that? Communism? Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Nigel Fortescue Naremburn

So the NSW Greens want to cut funding to any school that teaches ideology in science classes. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

S. Wagland Willoughby

Call me ignorant but my idea of intelligent design is those long plastic sticks for scooping up and throwing your dog's tennis ball. No slobbery hands - that's intelligent.
Josephine Carroll Revesby

Apart from being out of touch with the almost 80 per cent of Australians who say they still believe in a god of some kind, isn't the stated practice of atheist teacher Laurie Fraser (Letters November 15) unprofessional and bordering on illegal?

A Christian teacher in a state school who tried to instil in students the notion that atheism was impossible, irrational and the province of loonies would rightly be reprimanded for pushing private religious beliefs in the classroom. By confessing that he denigrates theism in just this way, is not Mr Fraser inviting the scrutiny by his superiors?
The Reverend Dr John Dickson Roseville

Oh no, tossing around ideas and critical thinking in the science classroom - "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". No wonder so many parents, religious and non-religious are turning to private and Christian schools.
Peter Williamson Glenwood

With an absence of intelligent design evident in the health and transport systems, it's no wonder the State Government wants to keep it out of education too.
Jonathan Egan West Ryde

What if the "intelligent designer" turned out to be a she and not a he God?
Susan Steggall Manly

I've no idea how television works. Does this mean that Kerry Packer really is God?
Peter Kenny Bexley

Max Fischer (Letters, November 15) wonders if his existence relies on a cabbage or a stork. Has he not heard of the Big Bang?
Tony Turner Tuross Head
 

Generator

Active Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
5,244
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A

Xayma

Lacking creativity
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
5,953
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Just seems to be a dodgy rehash of everything printed so far.

Nothing new in there.
 

Dumsum

has a large Member;
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,552
Location
Maroubra South
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Personal experience is observation. You can convince yourself however much you want that gravity doesn't exist, just like you can convince yourself God doesn't exist and hence didn't create the universe. Did you know pain existed before you ever felt it? Don't be so quick to discount something.

Science and creationism don't have to be separate.
 

Dumsum

has a large Member;
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,552
Location
Maroubra South
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
My point was you don't know anything until you observe it, which is pretty much what science is based around, no? If one can observe God then it is likely God created the universe since the way matter has arranged itself is kind of in violation of the second law of thermodynamics anyway.
 

Generator

Active Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
5,244
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Dumsum said:
My point was you don't know anything until you observe it, which is pretty much what science is based around, no? If one can observe God then it is likely God created the universe since the way matter has arranged itself is kind of in violation of the second law of thermodynamics anyway.
One can actually (or has) observe(d) a god? Really?
 

Dumsum

has a large Member;
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,552
Location
Maroubra South
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Generator said:
One can actually (or has) observe(d) a god? Really?
Depends what you want to call an observation, which is why I mentioned personal experience in my first post. I've only been christian for a little over 9 months but looking back I can see how God has been an influence in my life for the last 3 years. You could pass off a lot of experiences as coincidence, but the probability is so low that perhaps another explanation isn't so nonviable? My observation is my experience.

Not to mention Jesus.

Edit: of course I realise that the christian account isn't all that's being discussed, "creationism" is broad. But this is just my belief.
 
Last edited:

MoonlightSonata

Retired
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
3,645
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
Dumsum said:
Depends what you want to call an observation, which is why I mentioned personal experience in my first post. I've only been christian for a little over 9 months but looking back I can see how God has been an influence in my life for the last 3 years. You could pass off a lot of experiences as coincidence, but the probability is so low that perhaps another explanation isn't so nonviable? My observation is my experience.

Not to mention Jesus.
Tell us your observations, and we will see if it holds up as proof.
 

Dumsum

has a large Member;
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,552
Location
Maroubra South
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
MoonlightSonata said:
Tell us your observations, and we will see if it holds up as proof.
I'm not coming in this thread to try prove anything, except my own faith. I also want to make the point that no one will believe anything if they are closed to the possibility. I've been on the other side of this debate a hell of a lot longer than I've been on this side, so I know why it's so hard to accept. I don't know enough about how the universe works to try and work the two seemingly opposing views together, but it's my hope I will be able to eventually.


Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 

Rafy

Retired
Joined
Sep 30, 2004
Messages
10,719
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
Uni Grad
2008
faith is a very dangerous concept.

(EDIT: In the context of this thread's subject matter of course.)
 
Last edited:

Dumsum

has a large Member;
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,552
Location
Maroubra South
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Faith is what gives you the confidence to sit on a chair without fear of it breaking ;)
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top