Aborigines..... (1 Viewer)

Not-That-Bright

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I am serious, just to end this whole land rights bs... the only result alot of aboriginals want is complete ownership of all of australia, however to them their religion the land represents all of the earth... or all of the universe i guess.
 

mugrug

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Comrade nathan said:
Don't any of you see the link between drug abuse, crime and poverty. It is the unemployed or the under paid which need social assistance and it are these who find it hard to support children wich grow up under educated and join the cycle of crime.It's foolish to think theses things are link to race.

Tell how many employed people do you see breaking into cars or dealing drugs, how many teens from wealthy families keep their life of crime in their younger years.
I agree with the gist of this statement, however I disagree that it is not linked to Race. Afterall people are often classified into "groups." Statistically there is a higher percentage of crime rates (due to unemployment, drug habits etc) in the aboriginal community than in the anglo seaxon. This is a societal problem, but must also be seen to be a racial problem (due to societies treatment of this minority group.)

I s'pose by saying that I shall be seen to be a racist considering the need for us all to be PC. If that makes me a racist then so be it, however It really has nothing to do with the race (genetically or however else it may be distinguished) But rather by poor community leadership, community treatment and perhaps cultural aspects.

kelboo said:
The reason they receive funding for going to school is in the hope of more Aboriginals receiving higher education. ...

Although the Aboriginals were here first, we now live here together. Living in harmony is not difficult - remember of course that tolerance is a virtue. ...
So the official government policy is that aboriginals are less capable of learning than anglo saxons?

Secondly, tolerance is not a virtue, it implies that we don't want to nor agree with a group but grudgingly allow it to continue. Acceptance is by far a better course of action, not merely tolerating their existance.
 

mugrug

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Not-That-Bright said:
I used to have this view... but then someone explained to me, it might of been asquithian that the aboriginal people need a leader, they need people willing to get out there and work.
That is why we make it easier for them to get into higher education, that is why we give them extra pay outs...

What i'd like to see is an end to the aboriginal people complaining about how they own this land and it was taken from them.. can't we just say there was a war and we won considering the ammount of battles there was?
I agree, however saying there was a war and that we won is a bit heartless. Why can't we just blame it on British colonisation. We are now a nation in our own right, far removed from our British heritage...

Basically I think three words sums it up: Get over it.

We should all work together for a better future as a unified nation.

Either that or declare civil war? Sorry, I was just saying that as an extreme example and to point out the stupidity of the situation.
 

mugrug

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Also, I must say that I think it is important to distinguish between the aborigines as a "race" and as a "community." There is a vast difference and it is perceptions of the "community" action that is often translated into being racial in nature. However, the two are really mutually exclusive. You can be aboriginal and choose not to be seen to be involved in such a sense of "community" (with all the problems or benefits this implies.)
 

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I really couldn't be fucked constructing a new argument more relevant to the disc topic, so yes:

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders are one of the most severely disadvantaged groups in Australian society. Both ATSI birth mortality and unemployment rates are three times higher than that of the average population. The average life expectancy is 56 years of age, compared to the non-Aboriginal 77. Aboriginal people are far more likely to be arrested and imprisoned1. Aboriginal leader Pat Dodson comments dryly that ‘[and] This is supposed to be the lucky country, one of the strongest economies. Where’s the money going?’2.

These statistics show that despite repeated attempts to equalize the position of ATSI in society, they still face substantial disadvantage in many areas – most notably, health and criminal justice. Reasons for this include discrimination, poverty, sickness, unemployment, poor education and a sense of helplessness.

17-year-old TJ Hickey was a typical example. He left school in year 9, was unemployed and had a police record. Those close to him freely admit he occasionally stole. His father and two uncles are serving jail time for armed robbery. Struggling with life at the duller end of the socioeconomic spectrum, TJ had to be ‘a little Daddy’ to his six younger sisters.3

His untimely death in February this year sparked civil unrest in the predominantly indigenous streets of Redfern, re-exposing the legal injustices ATSI still face despite post-1967 reforms. In particular, the fragility of ATSI-police relations was brought again into harsh international – as well as domestic – spotlight.

Aboriginal people continue to be grossly over represented at all stages of the criminal system. They are 15 to 20 times more likely to be imprisoned Australia-wide. In NSW, Aboriginal people made up 12.4% of the prison population in 1996, although they account for less than 2 % of the population1. TJ’s aunt, Virginia Hickey, claims that “Nearly every black father is institutionalised. It's our sad case. And the mothers are left with four or five little kids. It sends them crazy ... Some of the mums get on the needle and then the kids don't have a mum or a dad”3. Having been taken from their own families as children, members of the Stolen Generation simply do not know how to parent; they do not know how to keep from straying beyond the boundaries of the law themselves, let alone teach their children. Free parenting courses and the beneficial interference of social welfare – there are concerns DOCS is simply not fulfilling its role3 – could work wonders, if only our government could muster the energy to care (I know, bias, but there was bias in ‘It takes a riot…’).

ATSI are more likely to die and to be mistreated while in police custody, are less likely to receive bail and to have legal representation and assistance. They are also more likely to plead guilty in advent of trial. Concern into Aboriginal deaths in custody manifested itself into the 1987 Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. Recommendations of the inquiry lead to some beneficial action, such as the establishment of the Aboriginal Justice Advisory Council, although the majority of which was minor and unevenly distributed throughout the nation1.

And that’s not all. ATSI are also twenty times more likely to be picked up by the police1, hence allegations that TJ was chased to his death by police. NSW Police deny such the claim3, whilst his girlfriend, April Ceissman, on the other hand, is sure of it: ‘…[the police] chase anyone, cos that's what they do.’4

Aboriginality makes a person more visible to the police simply because of facial features and skin colour. Aboriginal customs such as drinking outdoors also contribute to the visibility of Aboriginal people, both to the general community and the police. Studies have show that poor and unemployed people are often targeted by the police and are disadvantaged in the system. Aboriginal people are often poor and unemployed and are thus doubly disadvantaged1 – as in the case of TJ Hickey.

Present problems regarding police and ATSI have been exacerbated by the historically atrocious treatment of ATSI by police. Cherry Hooker – friend of TJ’s mother Gail – admonishes that, ‘The police have harassed our kids for too long. This has been happening since I was a kid, it’s been happening forever…I have never been in trouble in my life, but when the police come I am frightened and run. If that’s what it’s like for an adult, what is it like for the kids?’3

Aboriginal people are also far more likely to be apprehended by police for public order offences under the Summary Offences Act 1988 (NSW). Some argue such offences, which include offensive conduct and language, provide a means through which police can harass and subdue innocent ATSI. Detention for drunkenness, permitted by the Intoxicated Persons Act 1979 (NSW), has also been perceived as a form of police discrimination against ATSI1. Hickey’s cousin was banned from his local school and then home town as a public nuisance – his mother claims he was constantly targeted by police3.

There is some evidence of systematic and widespread violence towards Aboriginal people, especially Aboriginal youth. A 1991 report issued by criminologist Chris Cuneen, showed 88% of those surveyed had been subjected to physical violence by police1.

And the list goes on. During both police interrogation and court procedures, ATSI can be severely disadvantaged because of language difficulties, cultural attitudes and health problems. Police resources are also often dispersed in a way that towns and suburbs with large Aboriginal populations are provided with a disproportionately large number of police. For example, in the high ATSI population town of Bourke, there was one police officer for every 120 people, compared to one for every 926 in the low ATSI population town of Chatswood1.

And while police are often criticized for discriminating against ATSI, they are often only acting in accordance with the expectations of the general public, especially in smaller communities.

According to Ray Jackson of the Indigenous Social Justice Association, only police higher up in the administration have got their attitudes right. But many police straight out of college are ‘full of adrenaline and testosterone and we have always have some particularly bad officers at Redfern.’3

There are arguments this view is unjustified. Indeed police have been making vigilant attempts at mopping up spilt milk – what with mentoring programs, helping ATSI children get ready for school, serving them breakfast and then escorting them there, taking them to camps and to nippers on weekends – working unpaid overtime in the process. "We've had a gutful of being the political footballs," said one anonymously angry Redfern officer. "We have gone above and beyond our roles, extending into the field of social work, where we shouldn't have to go. We have had to do it because no one else is."4 SMH columnist Miranda Devine comments wryly that, nonetheless, ‘the police have the Greens senator Kerry Nettle…complaining about the "enormous police presence" around Redfern station during…[the February] riot . "The simple fact that young Aboriginal children are taking flight when they see police officers in the area is an indication that there is a problem. Such a flight response is generated by fear, and more heavy police tactics will not solve the distrust and understandable anger."…Understandable anger at being taken to Nippers on Sunday morning?’4

While there is much that could be done , little has actually been done.

As a large percentage of ATSI are apprehended for public-order offences, many argue that a repeal or amendment of the Summary Offences Act would abolish a means of discriminatory power use. Nothing has been drafted as of date.

There are also claims police are inadequately screened at recruitment for racial prejudice, and also inadequately trained to deal with the challenges of policing in ATSI communities before being allocated to such communities. Thus, improved training programs for police, more careful distribution of forces and efforts to recruit ATSI as police may have the effect of easing ATSI-police tension. Both state and federal governments have implemented such changes following the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody recommendations, but with little success.

The 1991 National Report of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody noted that alcohol was frequently related to ATSI deaths in custody. It therefore recommended that adequately funded programs be instituted to establish care facilities for those who are intoxicated whilst in custody and also that wider training programs aimed at reducing alcohol abuse be implemented. The Federal government obliged with its 1992 pledge of $61 million toward alcohol abuse reduction programs for ATSI1.

Some perceive the ATSI rightfully deserving of self determination, and that until this is gained they will be disadvantaged not only by the legal system but by society as well. Self determination may lead to greater sense of hope and purpose amongst the ATSI. Treaties with indigenous peoples and a closer relationship with federal governments have improved the situation of ATSI’s Canadian, NZ and US counterparts. Aboriginal leader Pat Dodson has called for similar agreements, advising that health be linked to integrated strategies in education, housing and a broader recognition of Aboriginal Australians in the life of the nation. There is promise in the growing numbers of Indigenous medical and nursing graduates2.

However those currently in power seem reluctant to grant our indigenous peoples a simple apology, let alone independence.

It is significant that many disadvantages suffered by ATSI in the criminal justice system are a direct result of their less than desirable socioeconomic circumstances. Factors such as disproportionate unemployment, poverty, alcohol and other substance abuse, inadequate housing and health problems all contribute to the over-representation of ATSI in the criminal justice system. We have TJ’s 14 year old girlfriend smoking and ‘liberally peppering every sentence with expletives’4, another ATSI girl being interviewed on national television wearing a T-shirt proclaiming ‘Buy me a drink and I’m yours’5, ATSI kids sniffing paint in front of town halls3, pedophiles and drug dealers doing business in broad daylight on the Block3. The light at the end of the tunnel is there, is real– in TJ’s example his going to see a counselor about returning to school to do his HSC3. But until these issues are appropriately addressed, ATSI will continue to be disadvantaged in the criminal justice system, and thus, discriminated against by police.

Education could be the answer. It has the potential to serve as a viable a way up, not a way out – it is unlikely ATSI will ever achieve equal status if the majority continues to rely on welfare payments and work in low-paying manual jobs. Education has been the migrant vehicle for ascendance up the socio-economic ladder, and because of the many similarities between the two disadvantaged groups ATSI should hypothetically be able to follow in their footsteps. The government should establish more indigenous university scholarships and allocate places at selective schools for ATSI, and implement financial/emotional assistance programs for ATSI schoolchildren, especially teenagers. ATSI teenagers should be actively encouraged to finish high school, to enroll in more academically demanding courses (Engineering Studies, extension maths, the sciences etc.) and continue onto tertiary education as to increase employability. Training more indigenous people as teachers may minimize the unfamiliarity ATSI schoolchildren may experience in predominantly white schools. The more ATSI entering the white collar professions, the more likely the achievement of equal status. Positive role models such Democrat Senator Aden Ridgeway and media personality Ernie Dingo should involve themselves in programs seeking to further the domestic eminence of ATSI.

Of correlation to the less than desirable legal status of ATSI is the appalling state of ATSI health. Many Aboriginals fall into legal strife because of health problems, drugs or alcohol. As such more extensive anti-drug, anti-alcohol, anti-crime and public health programs should also be implemented. Special health/alcohol/drug abuse clinics should be established for ATSI, as well as public health education programs, free or low cost counseling/basic medical care. Access to contraception and provision for sexual health services should be increased. Governments, in conjunction with community welfare groups, should attempt to offer ATSI youth alternatives to drugs – sport, drama, writing groups.

Changes in racist attitudes held by the public are also necessary before ATSI can gain true legal equality. Although change is such attitudes are notoriously difficult and slow, broader education programs, the reconciliation process and anti-discrimination laws endeavour to address this problem.

Though anti discrimination laws such as the Anti-Discrimination Act 1977 (NSW) and the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) have had some sway in relieving discrimination against ATSI, their effect has been largely limited. One reason for this is that having a complaint heard is slow and cumbersome, often taking several years for a matter to be finalized. ATSI often feel it is not worth making a complaint to the Anti-Discrimination Board.

Many are also dissatisfied with the results of their complaints, wishing to see the perpetrators of discriminatory acts punished. The remedies available may not be enough to prevent further discrimination. NSW legislation provides only for fines and imprisonment in serious cases of racial vilification; there are recommendations use of criminal penalties needs to be extended. There should be some Federal effort made to maximize effectiveness whilst simultaneously minimizing cost and delay. For example, alternative dispute methods such as arbitration and mediation could be put to use.

That the legal system has taken a stab at resolving the conflict cannot be denied. However, stereotyping continues to occur; thousands of ATSI kids continue to wander the streets in a faze of alcohol, drugs and abuse. And despite all that has been done, all the legislation, National Sorry Day, reconciliation, the black and white cultural divide has sometimes proved just too much. White Australians simply do not, and may not ever have the capacity to understand the complexities of the cultural barrier. Virginia Hickey claims that, ‘It's just pathetic being black…You'd never know if you weren't dark.’3

In the words of Fred Chaney, co-chairman of Reconciliation Australia and deputy president of the National Native Title Tribunal: ‘We must not allow our despair over the tragic death of a young man, nor the reactions of those around him, to stop us recognising that all over Australia people are working towards creative solutions. We need to redouble our efforts to get it right. The pockets of success in reconciliation show us that it can be done. We must ensure that good intentions are translated into positive action.’6
 

biggles04

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Oh...My...God

I am not even going to try to point out the problems with that little speech of yours,
I really don't want to be rude because people seem to be respecting me...BUT:

I really think you should see things from Pauline Hanson's point of view.

Actually, no, I don't, But, although you have presented a lot of evidence there...


No, no, I am going to stop there, I am very, very, very disappointed in every single person who has participated in this thread which has no place in these forums.
 
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paper cup

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biggles04 said:
Oh...My...God

I am not even going to try to point out the problems with that little speech of yours,
I really don't want to be rude because people seem to be respecting me...BUT:

I really think you should see things from Pauline Hanson's point of view.

Actually, no, I don't, But, although you have presented a lot of evidence there...


No, no, I am going to stop there, I am very, very, very disappointed in every single person who has participated in this thread which has no place in these forums.
It was a legal studies assessment task which I got 28/30 for.
Look I already have been slammed extensively for a lot of things, but point is I do live in a rural area, yes there are really rude stupid ATSI people here, we even have a park named in their honour...drunks in the park...but you must see that the reason that they are that way is partially because of how they were treated in the past.
 

biggles04

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cherryblossom said:
It was a legal studies assessment task which I got 28/30 for.
Look I already have been slammed extensively for a lot of things, but point is I do live in a rural area, yes there are really rude stupid ATSI people here, we even have a park named in their honour...drunks in the park...but you must see that the reason that they are that way is partially because of how they were treated in the past.
I find this topic extraordinarily politically incorrect for a school assessment.
 

paper cup

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biggles04 said:
I find this topic extraordinarily politically incorrect for a school assessment.
you obviously have little affilation with the HSC syllabus
focus group ATSI, prelim legal, i didn't chose it
go bash the people who wrote it, jeez
 

Monkey Butler

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cherryblossom said:
you obviously have little affilation with the HSC syllabus
focus group ATSI, prelim legal, i didn't chose it
go bash the people who wrote it, jeez
Oh sweet jesus I remember that assessment - it was one of many all-nighters for legal studies
 

Li0n

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Not-That-Bright said:
I dunno... these aboriginies that keep fighting for their land saying it's actually theirs... they must be the minority i mean only like 2% of aboriginies still follow their traditional religion.
yes because you white people destroyed it
 

Komaticom

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Isn't some dude/group of dudes trying to publicise how Aborigines are academically crap? In primary school, in high school, etc? If the majority of Abos don't do well in school, it sounds reasonable to benefit them somewhat by having a box with the question "Are you Torres Strait Islander or Aboriginal?" next to it for forms and stuff.

I guess that Aboriginal kids don't fancy education as much as well do.
 

omg_a

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why should the school syllabi all have to be politically correct?? we're at school, supposed to be earning an education, not learning how to not tread on people's toes.
 

neo o

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Komaticom said:
Isn't some dude/group of dudes trying to publicise how Aborigines are academically crap? In primary school, in high school, etc? If the majority of Abos don't do well in school, it sounds reasonable to benefit them somewhat by having a box with the question "Are you Torres Strait Islander or Aboriginal?" next to it for forms and stuff.

I guess that Aboriginal kids don't fancy education as much as well do.
So, should everyone's marks be aligned on the basis of race? Under your logic - it seems fair.
 

biggles04

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Asquithian said:
another idiot....
Maybe you should start respecting people on the forums and they will respect you back? Just a suggestion but I really think you should not be presenting yourself like that.
I will no longer be participating in this thread, it has gone way out of hand.
 

Komaticom

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neo_o said:
So, should everyone's marks be aligned on the basis of race? Under your logic - it seems fair.
It's not my logic. It's the Board of Studies'. BoStards.
 

Enlightened_One

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No racism here, because I ain't racist, and I have aboriginal friends, but I know people who have good reason to be racist:

I know of people who were gang bashed in Newcastle recently, and everyone of the attackers was of aboriginal ethnicity, every single one. They also stole a few things such as phones as a couple of them. Having said that, it's only a few of them, not all, but it is enough to turn people racist. (And then there's those Redfern riots but about them I only know what I heard from the media).

More of that later.

Aboriginies are treated as if they're born deficient by the government. They get funding for their skin colour, which ain't right. They should be treated the same as everyone else. A lot of them may be poor or live in "bad" areas, but they should recieved fudning because of this. All poor people, etc, should recieve the same funding regardless of skin colour. ;)

Giving them benefits because they're black is just seperating us from them, which is almost as bad as racism. The message is sent that if your Aboriginal you need help. So much for self respect.

Above I mentioned things such as a recent violent attack in Newcastle. This sure as hell ain't right, but from the way the media portrays them and the government acts there is the sense that the simply acting the way everyone expects. Which, by the way, is no justification for their acts. :mad:

The problem with this country is that people still judge on skin colour, and those of different ehtnicity from the majority (white fellas), don't really seem to see anything wrong with it.

Everyone talks about reconciliation and moving forward etc but until we realise that we're basically all equal, and the only premise we should be judged on is who we really are, then we are simply going to fail.
 

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Here's something related in the news...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...-for-Aborigines/2004/12/05/1102182136778.html

PM backs tougher measures for Aborigines
Curfews and alcohol bans may be necessary in Aboriginal communities, John Howard said today, adding that civil liberties were less important than staying alive.

Health and social problems among indigenous people should be solved at a community level, not from the top down, Mr Howard told the ABC.

"The answer lies in finding solutions at a local level that keep families together, re-assert the authority of parents, instill a greater sense of responsibility in parents and Aboriginal leaders," Mr Howard said.

"Where they want to impose the disciplines of things like alcohol bans and limitations, they should be fully supported by governments and they shouldn't get tangled up with people running around and saying this is some kind of restriction on civil liberties.

"The most important civil liberty is to stay alive and unless people are given the opportunity to do so then you can't really start even talking about civil liberties."

Local Aboriginal leaders were much better placed than any national body to address issues in their own communities, Mr Howard said.

"The most important thing is to recognise there is within many Aboriginal communities, at a local level, a responsible leadership that has a desire to do something," he said.

"If that involves imposing things like curfews and alcohol bans and whatever then we have to be willing to embrace those things."

The new National Indigenous Council (NIC), which will meet for the first time this week, would be the Government's principal source of advice on indigenous issues, Mr Howard said.

However, he said the Government was willing to "go halfway" with all representatives of the Aboriginal community.

Mr Howard last Friday met with indigenous leaders including Pat and Mick Dodson and former AFL star Michael Long after the footballer walked more than halfway from Melbourne to Canberra to highlight indigenous suffering.

"I am profoundly unhappy, as all Australians should be, at the state of Aboriginal health and I believe very sincerely that the best hope for Aboriginal people in our society is that they share the benefits and the bounty of modern Australia whilst getting respect for their own very distinctive place in our history and our culture," Mr Howard said.

Pat Dodson said he and other Aboriginal leaders were willing to work with the Government.

"There's room to negotiate the ways these things can take place but we're all committed to turn around the sadness and the sorrow and the lack of opportunity in the indigenous communities in many places," he told the ABC.

"Instead of being in a position that appears to be oppositional to what the Government's position is we're seeking to have a dialogue about the best way to do that, and beyond just our leadership, involve other non-indigenous people who can assist in shifting the problems."
 

Li0n

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the answer = reconciliation

new zealand can do it? why cant we
oh yeah i forgot, john howard is an evil whitewhitewhitewhitewhitewhite person
 

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