IDF Flotilla Incident Official Thread (3 Viewers)

speak

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she was going to lose diplomatic privileges because she was on the flotilla in the first place not because she spoke about it

as for Zionism. Zionism ended in 1948.
as for 'anti-Semite'. learn what etymology is.
as for Israel offering nuclear weapons to SA. prove it.
as for shooting people. learn what self defence is and why you shouldn't attack armed soldiers on a peaceful mission.
 
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ibbi00

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she was going to lose diplomatic privileges because she was on the flotilla in the first place not because she spoke about it
But I thought Arab Israelis live under so much freedom. I mean surely partaking in a peaceful mission is exercising one's right of freedom that they supposedly enjoy?

as for Zionism. Zionism ended in 1948.
How naive of you.

as for shooting people. learn what self defence is and why you shouldn't attack armed soldiers on a peaceful mission.

Self-defence: is a countermeasure that involves defending oneself, one's property or the well-being of another from physical harm.
SOURCE

The right of self-defense is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including the use of deadly force.
SOURCE

According to you, self defence is: "I come to seize your humanitarian boat and when you respond in self defence in an attempt to stop me, I'm allowed to counteract in self defence thus effectively revoking your right of self defence."

Are you aware of how fuckin' stupid that sounds? Utter nonsense.
 

JonathanM

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Don't even get me started on double standards. israel refusing to sign the NPT is hypocritical. israel offering to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa is hypocritical. 'Peaceful and brave IDF' hijacking a humanitarian aid ship and shooting its members from the back is hypocritical... "Well everyone else is killing civilians all over the world! Why can't we do it!?!" Is the dumbest argument I've ever heard.
I didn't believe this issue was about Nuclear weapons? I'm not a "my country right or wrong" supporter of Israel - sure, I love the country ridiculously, that seems obvious, otherwise I wouldn't have joined the army. But my stance on the Nuclear issue is another matter altogether. I'm well aware of the debacle where the Israeli government offered to sell nuclear weapons to the apartheid regime - it's a dark part of Israel's history and I like most Israelis am not proud of it - thank God it never happened.

About the lack of signing the NPT - I can tell you that at the moment, this is the only thing holding all out war and thus saving hundreds of thousands of lives. Nuclear weapons are what gives Israel the edge over its enemies. We all know Israel would not use the nukes it has - this was seen clearly when they weren't used in 1973, when Israel was on the absolute verge of destruction but abstained from using them. It is merely as a strategic tool. I'm all for nuclear proliferation, (in fact the TV series Jericho gave me a real fear of nuclear war :p ) but it is just not a realistic, not to mention safe notion for Israel until there exists real stability in the region.

And I'm not justifying Israel's actions, I'm just saying that you can't beat Israel with a yardstick and then not use the same yardstick to hit other countries responsible for even more grievous crimes, that's called hypocrisy. Also, I think you need to double check your definition of what "humanitarianism" is. It's a care for all humans.

The Free Gaza movement describes itself as a humanitarian movement, but this is completely incorrect. Not only does it obviously not care for all humans - it provides no aid for other countries where there are humanitarian issues like other genuine humanitarian organisation. It goes further by not only not providing humanitarian help to those on the other side of the conflict - the innocent Israelis who have lived under the constant threat of rocket fire for the past 8 years, but also sanctioning their murder. In the Free Gaza movements manifesto, it defends the Palestinians right to resistance, manifest in whatever form - by indiscriminate rocket fire or by the blatant murderous act of a suicide bomber blowing up a bus of innocent civilians.

I ask you, what "humanitarian" organisation, what "human rights activists" support this?

Furthermore, I ask you, directly, who have called these people human rights activists, what kind of human rights activists support the genuine apartheid regime of Hamas, one which oppresses its people with gender, sexual and religious apartheid? There is no freedom of press under Hamas, no toleration for homosexuality under Hamas, no equal rights for women under Hamas. And yet there are images of when past "human rights activists" have arrived in Gaza being received and receiving Hamas officials with open arms, embracing them and receiving awards from them.

I ask you, what humanitarian receives awards from an extremist Islamic regime?

These are not rhetorical questions - and don't answer them with your own questions to divert to point - what are your answers?

What about MK Hanin Zuabi?
I almost forgot, thank you for providing me with the most emphatic example of Israel's democracy. So free are these Arab members of parliament, that they are able to work against the state which has provided the platform to put them in power. That a member of parliament can one week be on a convoy of ships under the banner of a movement which denies Israel's right to exist, that she can support the enemies of the state of Israel, Hamas with supplies and then can only a few days later be attending a session of the Knesset freely? Sure she was shouted down, but not only does this seem legit considering her actions - it is a natural democratic process, members of the Australian parliament are often removed for contempt of the parliament.

So free are these Arab members of parliament that recently they went on a junket to Libya where they were treated with absolute luxury - they dined with Gadaffi and discussed how to remove the existence of the Jewish State - they were back in Israel a week later, freely walking the streets and speaking (or rather, ranting) in the Knesset.

The parliament was just an example of the democracy in Israel - the actions it makes itself are not always perfect and reflective of the peoples will as are the actions of most parliaments (internet censorship anyone?) But I forgot another great example of democracy - there is an Arab supreme court Justice in Israel (of only 14).

But if you still choose to argue that there is no democracy in Israel - whatever. I heard it from the mouth of a Palestinian/Israeli-Arab only today that there was, a person more apt to know than anyone in this thread and I've witnessed it with my own eyes and ears. Just over a month ago I was in the Israeli-Arab village of Ein Rafa, very close to Jerusalem and I spoke to a few of the community leaders who could only compliment Israel's democracy - they had some issues with it, granted, like the disproportionate funding schools in more Jewish areas receive compared to their schools. But they put up with this, because they knew they were enjoying excellent democracy relative to some of their relatives under the Palestinian Authority - they were also seeing improvements, achieved through lobbying Israeli authorities, as is proper in a working democracy.
 

Rothbard

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Thank you JonathanM for pointing out the utter hypocrisy of the left in supporting Islamist regimes worldwide.

The left have such a fervent streak of anti-americanism, and never learned that the enemy of your enemy is not your friend, they have deluded themselves into thinking that supporting theocrats is somehow morally superior to supporting the western values that have provided them with such a platform.
 
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That's a valid point, but that wasn't what he was saying. What was was saying is that we should support Israel because a) Everyone else misbehaves, b) Anti-Semitism, holocaust, et al.

Fuck off JonathanM you moronic Zionist cunt. Your posts are not worth a proper response.
 

TacoTerrorist

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JonathanM said:
And I'm not justifying Israel's actions, I'm just saying that you can't beat Israel with a yardstick and then not use the same yardstick to hit other countries responsible for even more grievous crimes, that's called hypocrisy. Also, I think you need to double check your definition of what "humanitarianism" is. It's a care for all humans.
Suck my balls buddy. The people firing rockets into the Israeli terror state are committing an act of terrorism, and are treated as terrorists. Israel claims to be a 'democratic state' and is committing far, far worse atrocities than actual terrorists. And if anything, Israel gets it easier than other countries. They can literally get away with mass murder, illegal occupation, mass imprisonment and blockading of basic goods.

JonathanM said:
The Free Gaza movement describes itself as a humanitarian movement, but this is completely incorrect. Not only does it obviously not care for all humans - it provides no aid for other countries where there are humanitarian issues like other genuine humanitarian organisation. It goes further by not only not providing humanitarian help to those on the other side of the conflict - the innocent Israelis who have lived under the constant threat of rocket fire for the past 8 years, but also sanctioning their murder. In the Free Gaza movements manifesto, it defends the Palestinians right to resistance, manifest in whatever form - by indiscriminate rocket fire or by the blatant murderous act of a suicide bomber blowing up a bus of innocent civilians.
Bullshit, total bullshit and I cannot believe that you are so blind are biased. The Free Gaza movement is a humanitarian organisation but does not have the resources to provide aid for every violation on earth, and instead focuses on the brutal crimes in Gaza, as the title suggests. Ooooh oh no what about the 'constant threat of rocket fire', most of the time the rockets don't actually kill anybody, and even if it does it kills what, 2 or 3 people at most? Poor Israel :(. Then the Israeli 'Defense' (child murderer) Force comes in and bombs a fucking school or something, killing dozens of civilians as 'retaliation'. Palestinians have a right to defend themselves in any way they can, and unfortunately this includes rockets and suicide bombing. You fucking heartless bastards deserve everything you get, and if there was any justice on this planet the entire IDF and those pricks that defend it would be strung up and quartered.

JonathanM said:
Furthermore, I ask you, directly, who have called these people human rights activists, what kind of human rights activists support the genuine apartheid regime of Hamas, one which oppresses its people with gender, sexual and religious apartheid? There is no freedom of press under Hamas, no toleration for homosexuality under Hamas, no equal rights for women under Hamas. And yet there are images of when past "human rights activists" have arrived in Gaza being received and receiving Hamas officials with open arms, embracing them and receiving awards from them.
Look, Hamas fucking sucks. So does Israel. Israel sucks a whole lot more than Hamas. Making it simple for you here. Israel is a terror state that has free reign over an entire region, a veritable puppet of the United States, doing its dirty work. How can you sit back and defend Israel, given its countless human rights abuses, the constant murdering of men, women and children? What kind of a fucking human being are you? Wake the fuck up, asshole.

EDIT: I've been to pro-Palestine protests, I've seen you cowardly Zionist pricks hiding behind your blood-stained flag, protected by the pigs. There were about 6 or 7 of you, and about 500 of us. The only thing stopping me from kicking your asses and burning your shitkicker flag were the cops protecting your right to spread lies.
 
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Levi Eshkol

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JonathanM said:
That's complete nonsense. First and foremost, those who are against Israel often cite the issue of "proportion" and how statistics attained from conflicts such as Cast Lead are often disproportionate in favor of the Israelis. And here you're trying to compare the death of 9 mercenaries with Russia's quashing of Checnya and the "pointless slaughter of civilians by NATO." How is that proportionate? Even if you compare the Palestinian deaths over the past decade that isn't proportionate.
What in God's name are you even on about? The point was clear in that people ought to care more about those issues - on an equivalent scale by which they evaluate their outrage against Israel. This does nothing to vindicate Israel and it is utterly beyond me as to why you keep bring up these instances of human atrocities elsewhere to somehow, in some fucked up way, defend Israel. Don't deny it because that is exactly what you were doing. You originally expressed your outrage over how it is unfair that Israel is having all this attention pushed against it. AGAINST it - piss off dickwad. The only thing that's unfair is that people don't care more about other, larger atrocities. The outrage that is being directed towards Israel is completely reasonable. They killed nine bloody aid workers for fuck's sake.

The Palestinians enjoy a great quality of life under the Israelis and before you dispute this - only today I heard a lecture from Khaled Abu Toameh, a Palestinian/Israeli-Arab who was once a journalist for the PLO and now writes for Israeli and Palestinian papers. He said that he and most Israeli-Arabs are greatful to live under Israeli rule and that as a journalist, it would be professional suicide to work under PA rule, that under the free Israeli media he is completely free to criticise whatever and whomever he wishes without fear of backlash. To paraphrase him, he said if he wrote a piece criticising Hamas in Gaza or the PA in the West Bank, it would not be safe to walk the street, but when he writes pieces criticising Israel, as he regularly does, he does not fear for his safety walking the streets of Jerusalem.
No, they don't. You're a joke, and you're a dipshit IDF bastard. I mean, Christ, how can you even make that point with a straight face? You've cited one questionable example against a mountain of evidence contrary to your point. Human rights in the occupied territories are fucking horrendous.

Do you want to know why people are outraged at Israel and Zionist bastards like yourself? It's because you're a group of unapologetic inhuman cunts. I'm just going to leave this here for you to read at your own lesiure. Hopefully some sense will come to you.

Human rights in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean the very use of the term apartheid is by definition incorrect - apartheid refers to a minority ruling over a majority as well as the use of legal segregation laws. Well here's a news flash - there's a majority of Jews in Israel. And here's another one - Israeli Arabs are given full and equal rights - they're even given more rights, such as not having forced conscription, joining the army is voluntary for them. I remind you that there are 11 Israeli-Arabs in the 120 seat Israeli Parliament, that's not including the Israeli members in the far left who also have strong Israeli-Arab voter bases. Yes, there is racism in Israel, but there is racism all over the world, and singling out Israel for it is a blatant double standard.
apartheid - definition of apartheid by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

And hey, in addition to that, tell me of the democratic rights extended to Palestinians living in the occupied territories, hmm?

The fact that you think I'm making these statistics up shows how true the point I'm making is. These deaths happened in the same week as the flotilla and you didn't hear a thing about it, because the world was too focused on beating up the Jewish State. In the same year as Cast Lead, when over 1400 Palestinians (including militants) were killed by the Israelis, over twice that number of purely civilians were killed just in Afghanistan and yet most of the world did not blink an eye at this. You try to point out that Israel prides itself on being a moral nation, well I'm pretty sure America does as well. Civilians are being murdered, raped and tortured daily in Sudan and all the people in this thread can cite is some BBC coverage? Where's the front page coverage that Israel is receiving?

Afghan Insurgency Upsurges as over 140 Killed in 1 Week
The link you provided cites total deaths in Afghanistan, you illiterate dipshit. Furthermore, most deaths were caused by other Afghanis. Read these things before using them in your argument. Stop trying to refocus the argument. I'll repeat it again, slowly, maybe you'll understand.

That the rest of the world does evil does not absolve Israel of blame, guilt and responsibility for its own evils.

It's that simple. And like TacoTerrorist said, an aid organisation, myself, him, Richard Gilmore et al have no responsibility to give a shit about anything happening elsewhere. We choose to be outraged as Israel. And it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism so don't even try to bring that up.
 

speak

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Suck my balls buddy. The people firing rockets into the Israeli terror state are committing an act of terrorism, and are treated as terrorists. Israel claims to be a 'democratic state' and is committing far, far worse atrocities than actual terrorists. And if anything, Israel gets it easier than other countries. They can literally get away with mass murder, illegal occupation, mass imprisonment and blockading of basic goods.
List of terrorist incidents, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After Russia launched the Chechen war and then the anti-guerilla phase in 2000 which is still going on now it's estimated that between 25,000-200,000 civilians have been killed, with allegations of kidnappings, torture and even beheadings, and no action taken against Russia. A big gap in the death estimates but even still the minimum estimate should have, I would think, warrant more criticism of Russia than the amount of criticism that has been heaped on Israel.

Or: International response to the Second Chechen War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's also the Sri-Lankan civil war that that has killed an estimated tens of thousands of civilians, again with not much criticism or threats of international investigation. And the ongoing military operations by the Pakistani army where an estimated 7000+ civilians have been killed.

As for Israel I believe investigations into the war have been done/are happening/will happen and just because no one has faced trial yet doesn't necessarily mean they have gotten away with anything.

And note that Hamas rejected the goods on the flotilla ship.

Ooooh oh no what about the 'constant threat of rocket fire', most of the time the rockets don't actually kill anybody, and even if it does it kills what, 2 or 3 people at most? Poor Israel :(. Then the Israeli 'Defense' (child murderer) Force comes in and bombs a fucking school or something, killing dozens of civilians as 'retaliation'. Palestinians have a right to defend themselves in any way they can, and unfortunately this includes rockets and suicide bombing. You fucking heartless bastards deserve everything you get, and if there was any justice on this planet the entire IDF and those pricks that defend it would be strung up and quartered.
I think you're overstating the Israeli retaliation a little - a rocket hits Israel then they bomb the militants involved or bomb a smuggling tunnel. That's usually about it. But what are Hamas and other groups in Gaza retaliating to in the first place? Nothing. A blockade? Come on. Hamas know they are the reason for the blockade in the first place.

EDIT: I've been to pro-Palestine protests, I've seen you cowardly Zionist pricks hiding behind your blood-stained flag, protected by the pigs. There were about 6 or 7 of you, and about 500 of us. The only thing stopping me from kicking your asses and burning your shitkicker flag were the cops protecting your right to spread lies.
wat
 

ibbi00

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List of terrorist incidents, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After Russia launched the Chechen war and then the anti-guerilla phase in 2000 which is still going on now it's estimated that between 25,000-200,000 civilians have been killed, with allegations of kidnappings, torture and even beheadings, and no action taken against Russia. A big gap in the death estimates but even still the minimum estimate should have, I would think, warrant more criticism of Russia than the amount of criticism that has been heaped on Israel.

Or: International response to the Second Chechen War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's also the Sri-Lankan civil war that that has killed an estimated tens of thousands of civilians, again with not much criticism or threats of international investigation. And the ongoing military operations by the Pakistani army where an estimated 7000+ civilians have been killed.

As for Israel I believe investigations into the war have been done/are happening/will happen and just because no one has faced trial yet doesn't necessarily mean they have gotten away with anything.
Typical israeli... Brush everything under the carpet. "Nothing to see here guys, look else where. Have you heard about what the Russians are doin? It's outrageous. It's bloody unspeakable"

No thanks. No one's buying it.

And note that Hamas rejected the goods on the flotilla ship.
Continue the sentence why don't you? ... "until all activists are released from israeli jail." Misinformant scum.

The least they can do to display their appreciation for what the activists risked their lives to do.
Failbag...
 

speak

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Typical israeli... Brush everything under the carpet. "Nothing to see here guys, look else where. Have you heard about what the Russians are doin? It's outrageous. It's bloody unspeakable"

No thanks. No one's buying it.
Lol I was responding to his claim that Israel 'gets it' easier than other countries. You are blind to context?



Failbag...

Hamas rejected goods to its own needy population. Adding the extra bit of information about them putting preconditions on the transfer of goods makes the statement no less true.
 
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speak said:
I think you're overstating the Israeli retaliation a little - a rocket hits Israel then they bomb the militants involved or bomb a smuggling tunnel. That's usually about it. But what are Hamas and other groups in Gaza retaliating to in the first place? Nothing. A blockade? Come on. Hamas know they are the reason for the blockade in the first place.
usually their retaliation winds up causing about 5-10x more damage than the original attack caused. in the case of the gaza or lebanon wars, the increase in damage was far, far greater.

re chechnya: israel was created amidst controversy and it hasn't died down since. 60+ years of violence from the outset. of course it garners more attention than what happens in chechnya. it also probably has a lot to do with the fact that israel is more similar to the US/Western Europe than russia is. naturally, if its easier to understand, it will be more widely reported in the media. that's why nobody gives a bumfuck about what goes on in western sahara.

all of this is moot though, and i shall repeat again: what the rest of the world does is irrelevant and does not absolve israel of responsibility for its acts, nor does it mean that any less attention should be paid to israel.
 

Garygaz

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Typical israeli... Brush everything under the carpet. "Nothing to see here guys, look else where. Have you heard about what the Russians are doin? It's outrageous. It's bloody unspeakable"

No thanks. No one's buying it.





Failbag...
A compelling refute of the previous posters argument.

10/10, would read again
 
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A compelling refute of the previous posters argument.
Other than that, there was no more substance to the argument. The scum say "hey what about russia! makes israel look good by comparison!" and it's typical. israel does something wrong so its supporters respond by diverting attention elsewhere.

israel launches a completely out of proportion attack on lebanon so they justify it based on 9/11 and terrorists. israel launches an massacre upon gaza so they bring up the holocaust. israel kills nine peace activists, so they bring up something about chechnya.

bloody ludicrous.
 

Garygaz

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terrorists launch suicide bombings everyday without justification. it's a fucked up world.
 

Garygaz

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when you say 'they' bring up Chechnya to justify their attacks you actually mean a random poster on an almost irrelevant forum brought it up.
 

speak

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all of this is moot though, and i shall repeat again: what the rest of the world does is irrelevant and does not absolve israel of responsibility for its acts, nor does it mean that any less attention should be paid to israel.
Are you as blind as ibbi00? I didn't say that. You're trying to straw fuck me. I was making the point to TacoTerrorist that Israel does not get it easier than other countries. It doesn't.

But since you bring it up, what other countries take in their own anti-terror/anti-insurgency wars are relevant and will have repercussions for setting the norms and international guidelines for what it takes to fight such wars.
 
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